The first Muslim to quote the OT/NT directly?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dronald
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

dronald

Guest
This question often reappears here when Muslims quote the Bible; specifically the New Testament.

As we know the New Testament quotes the Old hundreds of times, often prefacing the quote with, “as said by this Prophet” then quoting word for word.

My question is; since so many Muslims now like to quote the Gospel word for word and give their interpretation then who was the first to do so? Can it be found in the Qur’an or Hadith?

I’m not looking for similar teachings, rather a specific quote prefaced with “as we read in the Gospel.” Thanks.
 
Sadly I can’t refer you to anything because little of it exists in English.

However, there is a minority tradition within the broader tradition of Tafsir that interprets the Bible by Islamic methods. And many commentators drew from the Bible to enhance stories found in the Qur’án and Sunnah.

Muslim exegetes refer to such use of the Biblical material as al-Isra’iliyyat (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra’iliyyat) and it also encompasses Jewish oral traditions and the works of some early Church fathers.

Muslims quoting the Bible is nothing new, and goes back to the first century of Islam.
 
Mirza19 said:
Sadly I can’t refer you to anything because little of it exists in English.

However, there is a minority tradition within the broader tradition of Tafsir that interprets the Bible by Islamic methods. And many commentators drew from the Bible to enhance stories found in the Qur’án and Sunnah.

Muslim exegetes refer to such use of the Biblical material as al-Isra’iliyyat (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra’iliyyat) and it also encompasses Jewish oral traditions and the works of some early Church fathers.

Muslims quoting the Bible is nothing new, and goes back to the first century of Islam.
Click to expand...
Thanks, but I’m looking for something a little more tangible. Something similar to what we find in the Bible:

1 corin 2:9 But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”

Romans 4:17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed–the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

They then would explain how such ought to be interpreted. In fact, look at Hebrews:

Hebrews 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: { Some manuscripts b For finding fault with it he says to them b } "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord, ’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more. "

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Contrast with Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.

33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD, ’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. "

I’m wondering if Muslims ever have done this with the NT (I’ll even accept the OT) and who was the first?
 
Direct quotations from the Bible are extremely rare in early Islam. There are none in the Qur’an itself, and following the Qur’an, most Muslims of the early period preferred paraphrase and allusion to direct quotation. The first Muslim reported to have quoted the Bible in their apologetics is one Abu Abdallah Muhammad Ibn Ishaq (d.c.767), who quoted John 15:23-16:1 in its entirety, apparently in an attempt to buttress his claim that the Paraclete written about in that passage was, in fact, a prediction of the coming of Muhammad. And Muslims have followed this baseless and unconvincing line of thought ever since…but such direct, lengthy quotation was an exceedingly rare practice before the 9th century, which was when the Bible first began to become widely available in Arabic outside of the monasteries of the region (which Muslims did occasionally visit out of interest in Christian doctrine and books; see, for instance, the encounter of the Muslim Emir and the Monk of Bet Hale c.720 AD, the first Syriac-language apologetic material against Islam).

There were also, interestingly enough, early Muslims who are reported to have translated the Bible into Arabic, such as Ahmad Ibn Abdallah Ibn Salam (d.809), who is reported by Muhammad Ibn Ishaq Ibn Al-Nadim (d.995) to have said “I have translated the Torah, the Gospels, and the books of the prophets and discioples from Hebrew, Greek, and Sabian, which are the languages of the people of each scripture, into Arabic letter of letter.” (By ‘Sabian’, we can presume he probably means Syriac.)

You can read a lot more about the history of Muslim engagement with the Bible throughout the early Islamic period (7th century to 13th or so) in Sidney H. Griffith’s recent book The Bible in Arabic: The Scriptures of the ‘People of the Book’ in the Language of Islam (Princeton University Press, 2013).
 
dzheremi said:
Direct quotations from the Bible are extremely rare in early Islam. There are none in the Qur’an itself, and following the Qur’an, most Muslims of the early period preferred paraphrase and allusion to direct quotation. The first Muslim reported to have quoted the Bible in their apologetics is one Abu Abdallah Muhammad Ibn Ishaq (d.c.767), who quoted John 15:23-16:1 in its entirety, apparently in an attempt to buttress his claim that the Paraclete written about in that passage was, in fact, a prediction of the coming of Muhammad. And Muslims have followed this baseless and unconvincing line of thought ever since…but such direct, lengthy quotation was an exceedingly rare practice before the 9th century, which was when the Bible first began to become widely available in Arabic outside of the monasteries of the region (which Muslims did occasionally visit out of interest in Christian doctrine and books; see, for instance, the encounter of the Muslim Emir and the Monk of Bet Hale c.720 AD, the first Syriac-language apologetic material against Islam).

There were also, interestingly enough, early Muslims who are reported to have translated the Bible into Arabic, such as Ahmad Ibn Abdallah Ibn Salam (d.809), who is reported by Muhammad Ibn Ishaq Ibn Al-Nadim (d.995) to have said “I have translated the Torah, the Gospels, and the books of the prophets and discioples from Hebrew, Greek, and Sabian, which are the languages of the people of each scripture, into Arabic letter of letter.” (By ‘Sabian’, we can presume he probably means Syriac.)

You can read a lot more about the history of Muslim engagement with the Bible throughout the early Islamic period (7th century to 13th or so) in Sidney H. Griffith’s recent book The Bible in Arabic: The Scriptures of the ‘People of the Book’ in the Language of Islam (Princeton University Press, 2013).
Click to expand...
Thank you so much. I have heard Muslims claim that John 15:26 is about Muhammad and not about the Holy Spirit, however I didn’t know that the argument is such an old one. The passage:

26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

I find it interesting that if this passage is about Muhammad then Muslims must believe that Jesus sent Muhammad. Not only that, but prior to that Jesus says the Spirit of Truth will be in you:

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, { Or b Advocate b, or b Counselor b; also 14: 26; 15: 26; 16: 7 } to be with you forever,

17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Do you have the exact text?

So then it is official, even though the Qur’an is the “word of God” it doesn’t quote the Gospel like the Bible does the OT and not even the Hadith or anyone for 400 years?
 
I’m not sure about the hadith (there isn’t really a single “the hadith” - it’s a huge corpus from many, many different, sometimes conflicting sources, and different Islamic traditions accept and reject different collections of hadith), but there are no direct quotes in the Qur’an, only allusions.

I do not have Abu Abdallah Muhammad Ibn Ishaq’s text. It is referenced as the first direct Bible quotation by a Muslim in the aforementioned book by Griffith.
 
dronald said:
Thank you so much. I have heard Muslims claim that John 15:26 is about Muhammad and not about the Holy Spirit, however I didn’t know that the argument is such an old one. The passage:

26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

I find it interesting that if this passage is about Muhammad then Muslims must believe that Jesus sent Muhammad. Not only that, but prior to that Jesus says the Spirit of Truth will be in you:

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, { Or b Advocate b, or b Counselor b; also 14: 26; 15: 26; 16: 7 } to be with you forever,

17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Do you have the exact text?

So then it is official, even though the Qur’an is the “word of God” it doesn’t quote the Gospel like the Bible does the OT and not even the Hadith or anyone for 400 years?
Click to expand...
No, numerous Mufassirs quote the Biblical text. But again, I can’t give you “tangible” quotes, because none of it is in English or accessible on the English web. If you have a solid academic network to operate with, you can try to find Tabari’s tafsir and its comments on Qur’an 5:44 and 5:15, etc.

Otherwise, no, no sacred material actually quotes the Biblical material. As the Biblical texts are considered “altered,” they are only ever used to supplament the Qur’án with details that do not contradict it – because otherwise the Qur’án is a “perfected” update. Theologically the Qur’án might quote from the “true” Bible…but that doesn’t really respond to your question.

Regarding the “Helper” quote…

Muslims attempted to argue that Parakletos (literally a legal helper, here in Matthew used metaphorically for a spirit of sorts) was a mistranslation of a word meaning “Praiseworthy One” which is a name for Muhammad.

As a Bahá’í, we believe Parakletos refers to Muhammad, but we would agree that “Jesus” send him. But our prophetology is quite different than Islam’s.

Additionally, Bahá’u’lláh (writing in 1860s) quotes the Bible numerous times in the Kitab-i-Iqan, because we Bahá’ís do not believe it is “corrupted.” We accept both the Christian Bible and Qur’án but assert “corruption” means that Christians (and Muslims) have misunderstood their revelations through invented traditions.

A large section of the Kitab-i-Iqan is an interpretation of Matthew 24:29, in which Bahá’u’lláh presents five different readings to argue that we must understand the passage metaphorically because literally it is logically absurd. We Bahá’ís originate in a Shi’i Islamic context, but we are not Muslims…so I don’t know how much this responds to your original question.
 
The Quran doesn’t usually quote directly from the previous scriptures but highlights certain beliefs, promises, punishments etc quite a lot. One notable quote I can think of is this.

*(3) Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."
( سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chapter #21, Verse #105)
*

You have to keep in mind that people, even today…are still very simple and lack deeper understanding of scriptures. People will often read a scripture at face value and then maybe they go in error after that?

I’ll give you a personal example. When I first read about the ‘cornerstone that was rejected’ in the bible I initially thought it had to be a reference to Prophet Mohammed or Islam. However i’m lucky to have access to the internet, something people didn’t used to. So for example I could go on biblegateway and read the version with cross-references. So I quickly learnt the cornerstone is actually Jesus.

Yet, knowing this i’ve actually encountered muslims giving ‘dawah’ to Christians and then quoting this and it’s quite difficult for me to stand by whilst they Butcher the truth. That’s also why I don’t like to give dawah because you can easily make mistakes. Often times i’ve thought about a text in one particular way but a few years later it takes on a whole new meaning.

This is going slightly off-topic but since people are talking about ‘Mohammed in the Bible’. I believe the Trinity in the following way

God
The Macrocosm (His Image/Son/Word)
The Microcosm (The Holy Spirit).

however I do not believe the macrocosm and microcosm to literally be equal with God, but emanations./ Just look at the terms Image/Son/Word ie I consider them to be the expression of God.
Still though there is no difference since God is manifest in them so it’s not like you would experience either one without there being the manifestation of God present?

The concept of the Microcosm was one not many people were able to understand since it also concerns the nature of Causality ie bringing the macrocosm into manifestation. There’s a famous book called The Secret of Secrets
amazon.co.uk/Secret-Secrets-Golden-Palm/dp/0946621292
“Sirr al-Asrar”
The sirr-ul-asrat is also known as the Lataif e Sirri, the heart of hearts. It’s the deepest point within man. Ie ‘man was made in the Image of God’. In different belief systems it has various names but the best one (my fav one) is the concept of Supermind taught by Sri Aurobindo
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermind_%28Integral_yoga%29

The concept of Supermind, the Sirr ul Asrat is also the same as the concept of the ‘Mohammedan Reality’ or ‘Light of Mohammed’ which I believe manifested in the man Mohammed. I do not believe Mohammed himself is equal to it, but it was in him. In the same way I differentiate between the ‘Son of God’ (ie the Logos) that was manifest in Jesus (The son of man).

I believe this subtle truth is what Jesus was referring to here.

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Look closer
he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak
*4 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. *
This is particularly interesting since it is also true for the Holy Spirit which is afterall the manifesting power of the Logos.

If you look at the mission of Jesus Christ, he made it possible for the gentiles to receive the truth and also completed Judaism. The coming of Prophet Mohammed is directly a result of Jesus. Before Jesus no man came from the arabs claiming prophethood. I don’t believe it’s an accident it happened after Christianity.

sorry for going off-topic but I hope what I said above makes some sense. You’d have to be familiar with the concepts though for it to make more sense.
 
Salman al-Farsi was well known for his knowledge of the Bible having been a Christian before. However I don’t think anything was actually written ie specific quotes.

The problem is in our era most muslims believe the bible is ‘corrupt’ and not the authentic bible. There are contradictions in their own argument because they specifically quote 1 Quranic text and 1 or 2 Hadiths…but the verse and those hadiths have been misinterpreted. The Quran certainly confirms the validity of the Torah and the Gospels in the present tense, therefore under no circumstances can these verses be contradicted by others.

Anyone who has read the bible will know the deeper context, it’s not the texts that were corrupt but it was their interpretations, how they were applied by corrupt people.

The Quran highlights that problem. The scribes were not only people who wrote the Torah but they also interpreted it.
Keep in mind the muslims of Medina would have had to study arabic translations of the Torah which were of course written by jews. If anyone is aware of the conflicts between the muslims and the jews in Medina, they’ll know why the interpretations of the jews could not be entirely trusted.

Here is a notable example in Hadith

(2) Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi’(No. 4431). (Book #38, Hadith #4434)

If you look at this hadith it is clear the Prophet specifically believed in the Torah that was in his hands.

The problem here is the jews were asking Prophet Mohammad to give judgement. The Quran also highlighted this issue here

*Chapter 5
43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

The Prophet ordered the jews to do what their book tells them to do.
If the book was corrupt, why would he do that?*

*(4) Narrated Ibn 'Umar: A Jew and Jewess were brought to the Prophet on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked the Jews, “What do you (usually) do with them?” They said, “We blacken their faces and disgrace them.” He said, “Bring here the Torah and recite it, if you are truthful.” They (fetched it and) came and asked a one-eyed man to recite. He went on reciting till he reached a portion on which he put his hand. The Prophet said, “Lift up your hand!” He lifted his hand up and behold, there appeared the verse of Ar-rajm (stoning of the adulterers to death). Then he said, “O Muhammad! They should be stoned to death but we conceal this Divine Law among ourselves.” Then the Prophet ordered that the two sinners be stoned to death and, and they were stoned to death, and I saw the man protecting the woman from the stones. (See Hadith No. 809, Vol. 8) (Book #93, Hadith #633)
*
Chapter 5 continued
44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah’s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
Code: 
45	We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.	

46	And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.	

47	Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.	

48	To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;*
Verse 48 really puts things into perspective for me and therefore I’m not fond of anyone attacking Judaism or Christianity or the Holy Scriptures. I do believe each religion is different for a purpose God knows best and I do believe the truth and purpose of our differences will be made clear one day. I believe that job is for Jesus to make clear one day.
 
Yes, this has always been my issue in that the Qur’an clearly states that the Torah and the Gospel are valid. However Muslims claim they are corrupt, so they often pick and choose which passages in the Bible suit them best.

I’ll give another example Muslims use:

Deuteronomy 18:18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. ’

Some Muslims like this passage and reckon it to be speaking of Muhammad and can possibly be an inspired passage that Allah was speaking of in the Qur’an. So it would be helpful to the Muslim’s case if it were quoted within the time of Muhammad, or by his companions. Unfortunately this never happens, as admitted by the Muslims here. In Christianity it happens frequently though; take a look:

From Peter
Acts 3:22 Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you.

23 And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people. ’

24 And all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and those who came after him, also proclaimed these days.

25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed. ’

26 God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness. "

Notice how Jesus and his disciples (Apostles) would quote straight from the OT to prove who Jesus was? I find it telling that this is missing from the one true Religion of Allah who would have known these passages. (and Muhammad and his friends.)

In response to your adultery charge, what would have happened if they pulled a Christian aside with the Gospel of John? I assume they would have lived, haha.
 
Do you not think that’s precisely because Jesus and his disciples were in fact jewish? Therefore it was a continuation of the judaic tradition which of course came to fulfillment with Jesus Christ.

I agree with you totally on Deuteronomy 18:18. The terminology used ie ‘from your brethren’ is the same as Ummah ie community. The New testament confirms it is Jesus Christ. It also says the same thing about kings ie they must choose a king from their own brethren.

I don’t think the Prophet Mohammed was openly prophesied in this way (not that he had claimed this…which is a key point).
The Quran says he is mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel.
So muslims in turn look for any kind of prophecy related to some person who fits the criteria.
I believe his coming was more a consequence of various things and I believe it is the proofs within the bible which suggest this. I think the Quran is very subtle here.

Consider the following
  1. As I explained before the jewish rejection of Jesus ie the ‘cornerstone’ led to the grace of God extending to the gentiles. This would have happened anyway however it’s precisely due to their rejection of him they fell into some pretty deep punishments.
Of all the people, it was the people who had destroyed their city and temple…the Romans, who subsequently became Christians. Think of the significance of this.
  1. the persecution of the jews was prolonged and it just happens that during the lifetime of Mohammad…a jewish commonwealth of the Sassanid empire had returned to Jerusalem. They had also killed thousands of roman christians…and genuinely they believed the ‘true’ messianic era was coming.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_revolt_against_Heraclius
  2. Consider all the above already then consider behind it all was 1 thing. The rejection of Jesus Christ.
    They were being punished by God.
Now read Deuteronomy 28
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+28&version=NASB

*“The Lord will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. *

*5 “The Lord shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth.

30 You shall betroth a wife, but another man will violate her; you shall build a house, but you will not live in it; you shall plant a vineyard, but you will not use its fruit. 31 Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will not eat of it; your donkey shall be torn away from you, and will not be restored to you; your sheep shall be given to your enemies, and you will have none to save you. 32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and yearn for them continually; but there will be nothing you can do. 33 A people whom you do not know shall eat up the produce of your ground and all your labors, and you will never be anything but oppressed and crushed continually. 34 You shall be driven mad by the sight of what you see.
*
The jews believed and still believe they were being tested by God and the true messianic era would eventually come. They were very strong in this belief.

Ask yourself why jews were living in Medina of all places? why there?
The jews were awaiting their messiah from the ‘tents of Kedar’ according to their understanding of the Isaiah 42 prophecy.

During this period they were at war with the Romans, had returned to Jerusalem and finally they’d heard a prophet had come in Arabia.

When Mohammed came to Medina the jews were the ones who celebrated his coming the most.

The jewish messianic hopes were high, but what they received instead was an Arab prophet.

Have you heard of Safiyya bint Huyeiy Ibn Akhtab? She was a jewish woman who the Prophet married. He’d killed her husband and her father!!

Now think of the Deuteronomy text i’ve already quoted and then just imagine this woman, a jewish woman marrying the man who killed her father, husband?

Here’s another interesting story

*She also narrated another significant story to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, She said, may Allah be pleased with her: "I was my father’s favorite and also a favorite with my uncle Yasir. They could never see me with one of their children without picking me up. When the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, came to Medina, my father and my uncle went to see him. It was very early in the morning and between dawn and sunrise. They did not return until the sun was setting. They came back worn out and depressed, walking with slow, heavy steps. I smiled to them as I always did, but neither of them took any notice of me because they were so miserable. I heard Yasir ask my father, “Is it him?”
He replied : “Yes, it is.”
Yasir asked : “Can you recognize him? Can you verify it?”
He answered : “Yes, I can recognize him too well.”
Yasir asked : “What do you feel towards him?”
He replied : “Enmity, enmity as long as I live.”
*

They were expecting someone (a messiah) but he was not what they expected.
 
What do you make of this hadith?
searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=1&translator=1&start=0&number=6#6

I think this part is also very significant

The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya’ (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya’ (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars,* I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror)**. Who are they who practice circumcision?’ The people replied, ‘Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews). 'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.’ While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah’s Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, ‘Arabs also practice circumcision.’ (After hearing that) Heraclius remarked that sovereignty of the 'Arabs had appeared. *

Heraclius, having learnt a prophet had come from the ‘circumcised people’ was going to kill every jew in the country!!

It was another big disappointment for Jews and subsequently…the Byzantines returned to jerusalem again

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-Sasanian_commonwealth#Abolishment

Read all of Isaiah 42, especially the end. I do believe everything that’s happened with Christianity and Islam, as a sort of manifestation of biblical promises/punishments etc.
I do believe in the restoration/redemption of Israel though.
 
The jews who came seeking judgement were naturally judged according to their own book. The Quran says
(46 And in their footsteps, We sent 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun (the pious - See V.2:2).
(47)Let the people of the Injeel (gospel) judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fasiqun the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree)] to Allah.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #47)*

Though…that’s quite a thing because although you believe in forgiveness and ‘he who is without sin’ there’s also
Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.*

I think here it is more a question of faith and doing what you believe would be best for you rather than relying on specific laws. Ie you could believe in God’s mercy and ask for it with genuine intent, or you could punish yourself in the hope of receiving forgiveness.

Similarly there’s this hadith. The man would have been forgiven if he’d wanted but he demanded punishment.

*(1) Narrated AbuHurayrah: A man of the tribe of Aslam came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and testified four times against himself that he had had illicit intercourse with a woman, while all the time the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was turning away from him. Then when he confessed a fifth time, he turned round and asked: Did you have intercourse with her? He replied: Yes. He asked: Have you done it so that your sexual organ penetrated hers? He replied: Yes. He asked: Have you done it like a collyrium stick when enclosed in its case and a rope in a well? He replied: Yes. He asked: Do you know what fornication is? He replied: Yes. I have done with her unlawfully what a man may lawfully do with his wife. He then asked: What do you want from what you have said? He said: I want you to purify me. So he gave orders regarding him and he was stoned to death. Then the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) heard one of his companions saying to another: Look at this man whose fault was concealed by Allah but who would not leave the matter alone, so that he was stoned like a dog. He said nothing to them but walked on for a time till he came to the corpse of an *** with its legs in the air. He asked: Where are so and so? They said: Here we are, Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him)! He said: Go down and eat some of this ***'s corpse. They replied: Apostle of Allah! Who can eat any of this? He said: The dishonour you have just shown to your brother is more serious than eating some of it. By Him in Whose hand my soul is, he is now among the rivers of Paradise and plunging into them. (Book #38, Hadith #4414)
*
 
I appreciate the lengthy response, but the only relevant part is that the first Christians were Jews and had the Torah and Tanakh available.

My belief is that inspired text should be able to quote inspired text. Muhammad should have believed that which had always been believed and not contradicted Jesus. There is only one universal rule for adultery, theft, apostasy, etc. Only one is right universally and the Qur’an never seeks to prove its truth by what had been taught prior.
 
dronald said:
I appreciate the lengthy response, but the only relevant part is that the first Christians were Jews and had the Torah and Tanakh available.

My belief is that inspired text should be able to quote inspired text. Muhammad should have believed that which had always been believed and not contradicted Jesus. There is only one universal rule for adultery, theft, apostasy, etc. Only one is right universally and the Qur’an never seeks to prove its truth by what had been taught prior.
Click to expand...
Sorry, a lot of threads here end up going offtopic i’ve noticed. People were talking about the ‘prophecies of Mohammed’ in the bible, we were already discussing it which is why my previous post was so long.

You’ve got to appreciate that i’m not a biased person and don’t believe it’d help me to be. However you also have to look at the bigger picture.

The question I ask is why Christianity didn’t take over the Arab lands before Prophet Mohammed. Afterall it is what Jesus ordered yet I find none of the great empires were interested in places like Mecca.

Whether you accept him or not, you cannot blame him for the society he was born into. You should question God why arabs were different to everyone else in that regard.

I find that the Arabs, in the muslim world also, are the most literal of the bunch. If they had received Christianity they’d never have understood it as it ought to be. Concepts like Logos were philosophical…they weren’t concepts your average Arab would understand especially in that time.
you’ve also got to stop looking at things from a globalised perspective, the arabs were their own people with their own culture, manners, style etc. Therefore the message they were going to receive from God had to be catered for them in particular. However you’ve also got to accept that Christians were largely european and could not spread their religion in the East. The Arabs and Persians took that role instead. This too, is something God intended.

Here are some verses from the Quran on this topic
*
Surah 6
154 Then, We gave Musa (Moses) the Book [the Taurat (Torah)] to complete (Our Favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
155 And this is a blessed Book (the Qur’an) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allah (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. be saved from the torment of Hell).
156 Lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “The Book was sent down only to two sects before us (the Jews and the Christians), and for our part, we were in fact unaware of what they studied.”
157 Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians).” So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur’an) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and turns away therefrom? We shall requite those who turn away from Our Ayat with an evil torment, because of their turning away (from them). [Tafsir At-Tabari]
*
it’s clear the Arabs didn’t associate themselves with judaism or christianity, considering them religions of other people. Naturally they required their own religion. Islam accomplished that.

Now concerning the laws you mentioned. I’ll just mention one, the law of divorce.

Matthew 19
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

You’re thinking along the following lines

“there was an imperfect law and Jesus came to make it perfect, so why did Mohammed go backwards?”

But then the same question should be asked of not only Moses, but God.
“But it was not this way from the beginning.” then why did God reveal the law of Moses? was God not going backwards? Or is it that God had designed laws for A particular group of people according to their spiritual condition? Based on this point your perspective really doesn’t have any strength?

I do not believe divorce is evil btw. I do not believe revenge is evil…but I believe to Jesus who was abiding in Unity, a state of Love/Absorption, there’s no room for personality here. Only Oneness.
 
Jesus was sent to the Jews, they would understand when he talks abut the OT.
The Prophet was sent to polytheists, the Bible means nothing for them.
 
Shia_Muslim said:
Jesus was sent to the Jews, they would understand when he talks abut the OT.
The Prophet was sent to polytheists, the Bible means nothing for them.
Click to expand...
Who were the Apostles for then? What does the Bible say about them?

Again, quotations from the OT to the NT:

Isaiah 9:2The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.

Matthew 4:14so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles --16 the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned. "

Isaiah then goes on:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon { Or b is upon b } his shoulder, and his name shall be called { Or b is called b } Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

Acts 13:46 is clear as well:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth. '”

Such was another quote from Isaiah:49:6 he says: "It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth. "

7 Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: "Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you. ":

How do Muslims ignore such obvious passages in the OT/NT about Jesus and His mission to the whole world, the Jew first then the Gentile?

What did Jesus mean by, “Go into all nations Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”?

Why do Muslims seek to reinterpret what is so clear?
 
AspiringSoul said:
Sorry, a lot of threads here end up going offtopic i’ve noticed. People were talking about the ‘prophecies of Mohammed’ in the bible, we were already discussing it which is why my previous post was so long.

You’ve got to appreciate that i’m not a biased person and don’t believe it’d help me to be. However you also have to look at the bigger picture.

The question I ask is why Christianity didn’t take over the Arab lands before Prophet Mohammed. Afterall it is what Jesus ordered yet I find none of the great empires were interested in places like Mecca.

Whether you accept him or not, you cannot blame him for the society he was born into. You should question God why arabs were different to everyone else in that regard.

I find that the Arabs, in the muslim world also, are the most literal of the bunch. If they had received Christianity they’d never have understood it as it ought to be. Concepts like Logos were philosophical…they weren’t concepts your average Arab would understand especially in that time.
you’ve also got to stop looking at things from a globalised perspective, the arabs were their own people with their own culture, manners, style etc. Therefore the message they were going to receive from God had to be catered for them in particular. However you’ve also got to accept that Christians were largely european and could not spread their religion in the East. The Arabs and Persians took that role instead. This too, is something God intended.

Here are some verses from the Quran on this topic
*
Surah 6
154 Then, We gave Musa (Moses) the Book [the Taurat (Torah)] to complete (Our Favour) upon those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail and a guidance and a mercy that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
155 And this is a blessed Book (the Qur’an) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allah (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. be saved from the torment of Hell).
156 Lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “The Book was sent down only to two sects before us (the Jews and the Christians), and for our part, we were in fact unaware of what they studied.”
157 Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians).” So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur’an) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and turns away therefrom? We shall requite those who turn away from Our Ayat with an evil torment, because of their turning away (from them). [Tafsir At-Tabari]
*
it’s clear the Arabs didn’t associate themselves with judaism or christianity, considering them religions of other people. Naturally they required their own religion. Islam accomplished that.

Now concerning the laws you mentioned. I’ll just mention one, the law of divorce.

Matthew 19
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

You’re thinking along the following lines

“there was an imperfect law and Jesus came to make it perfect, so why did Mohammed go backwards?”

But then the same question should be asked of not only Moses, but God.
“But it was not this way from the beginning.” then why did God reveal the law of Moses? was God not going backwards? Or is it that God had designed laws for A particular group of people according to their spiritual condition? Based on this point your perspective really doesn’t have any strength?

I do not believe divorce is evil btw. I do not believe revenge is evil…but I believe to Jesus who was abiding in Unity, a state of Love/Absorption, there’s no room for personality here. Only Oneness.
Click to expand...
If you’re not biased and you believe that Christianity stayed out of the Arab lands for a reason then now would be the time to accept what all of the Prophets wrote. Because Salvation is drilling into those Arab lands and the Arabs are resisting. Bible’s are banned from Saudi and preaching is banned from the entire middle east. We’re still going to be killed for teaching the true doctrine of Christ but that doesn’t make it anymore wrong.

At least you’re not stuck in ignorance like them. You have the Scriptures available and will not be murdered for apostasy. We have proof of who Jesus was meant to be and who He was, and Christianity will infiltrate the middle east but it won’t be easy. We’re far too hated and unwanted… but not for you.
 
AspiringSoul, you seem like you mean well, but what you have written is not in conformity with the historical record so far as we have it. Read some scholarly sources like Trimingham Christianity Among the Arabs in Pre-Islamic Times and you’ll find that the reason why it penetrated less into Arabia proper than surrounding regions had more to do with the kinds of Christianity that tended to appeal to the people (strongly hermetically-inclined, which, combined with the natural trouble in putting down roots in a nomadic society, led to a lack of cohesive Christian communities even though there were huge tribes that were mostly Christian by a certain point, like the Banu Taghlib and others) than with any kind of “Arab mindset” that would’ve prevented them from receiving the scriptures in a way that was concordant with the hermeneutic of the early church. If that were the case, there would not have been the many Arab Christians at Al-Hira (the pre-Islamic settlement in modern Iraq that was largely settled and populated by Arab Christians), to name but one counter-example. And the fact that the lives of the martyrs of Najran are preserved from Syriac (Western and Eastern) sources should tell you something about their allegiances, e.g., that they were not isolated from the Christian mainstream of this or that permutation (see Brock and Harvey Holy Women of the Syrian Orient for the writings on the martyrs themselves and Brock The Bible in Arabic for the likely ecclesiastical identities of Christians in Arabia at the dawn of Islam).
 
dronald said:
If you’re not biased and you believe that Christianity stayed out of the Arab lands for a reason then now would be the time to accept what all of the Prophets wrote. Because Salvation is drilling into those Arab lands and the Arabs are resisting. Bible’s are banned from Saudi and preaching is banned from the entire middle east. We’re still going to be killed for teaching **the true doctrine of Christ **but that doesn’t make it anymore wrong.

At least you’re not stuck in ignorance like them. You have the Scriptures available and will not be murdered for apostasy. We have proof of who Jesus was meant to be and who He was, and Christianity will infiltrate the middle east but it won’t be easy. We’re far too hated and unwanted… but not for you.
Click to expand...
Which is?

The religion of islam didn’t go into this topic at a deeper level in order to avoid controversy (religion is for all people, not just deep thinkers). It’s enough in islam that we believe in Jesus Christ.
Very very few can legitimately follow him.

I do not associate divinity with Jesus personally but with the Cause of Causes who was manifesting in him. There’s a subtle difference here.

The main topic is the Crucifixion which muslims have the wrong view on. That’s because they do not understand the Quranic verse in connection. Just to understand that 1 verse, the entire context surrounding the prophecies, teachings, the condition of the jews before and after Jesus etc have to be understood.

Also you seem to think Jesus set the standard and therefore we have to specifically follow him. Ie if he says ‘no divorce’ then quite simply no one should divorce ever again.

The problem with that is, the law of Moses comes from God and therefore to reject the law of divorce is to reject God.

Once again, in order to maintain consistency i’d rather see another way out of this.
Personally I believe God knows best what is fair for us.

If Abraham already lived by Faith before there was a law of Moses then why did God later allow divorce? it would appear things were perfect but God took a backward step no? On the contrary. God knew the spiritual state of the people the law was intended for. What Jesus preached, I believe and accept…but how many can live by it? 99% of Christians cannot ‘follow’ Jesus because they do not posses the inner state of Unity.

ie ‘show him your other cheek’
do you mean to tell me i can slap most christians and they won’t respond? yet i find most Christians here believe the Crusades were justified and they believe in self-defence.

It’s that very attitude which ultimately caused divisions within Christianity. Eventually the law of Shariah came as a reminder.

*Surah 5
44 Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
Code: 
45	And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
What Allah tells us is, forgiveness is superior but an eye for an eye is still ok. That’s because the message of the Quran is for all people, the normal and the superior.

The message of Jesus, could not be practiced by an average person. Ie very few can actually follow his teachings.

If you ever get a chance watch this documentary to understand the sacrifice that’s required to attain the inner experience of God-consciousness.

youtube.com/watch?v=Zk1rsVCF8N0
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top