The first transubstantiation

[1962Missal]

Before the resurrection, Jesus said that:

Matt 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Did he not mean that he was omnipresent?

John 6:11 And Jesus took the loaves: and when he had given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down…12 And when they were filled, he said to his disciples: gather up the fragments that remain, lest they be lost. 13 They gathered up therefore and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves which remained over and above to them that had eaten.

The passage states that is was the fragments of five loaves, not five loaves made into hundreds of loaves. Somehow, the miracle involved a multilocation of the same five loaves. The feeding of the five thousand is a prefigurement of the Eucharist.

I understand that Jesus was divine, and I am not sure what that would be like, but Jesus was also Perfect Man. I do know what it is like to be a man…It is pretty clear to me that Jesus wasn’t omnipresent (to the point of being obvious). I also don’t think Jesus was omniscient or omnipotent…

Perhaps you are trying to rely on your imagination too much. Imagination can only help if you can form mental images out of your own experience. We have no experience of possessing two natures. ISTM that you would have Him operative in only one nature at a time. The Catholic Church would disagree with you:

…we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, … like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, …recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons…

One person, simultaneously possessing two natures, two intellects, and two wills. Omnimpresent, omnipotent, ominiscient *and * locally present, able to suffer and die, and grow in wisdom.

God cannot do the logically impossible (He cannot make a square circle). It seems odd to me that the bread and wine would be the real presense of Jesus’ body and blood, when Jesus’ body and blood were sitting nearby.

If God can make everything (including space and time) out of nothing, then can’t He make one thing into another or make one thing occupy two places simultaneously?

Justin

 

[Angainor]

Justin,

ISTM?

You make some excellent points. Perhaps it is the limit of my imagination that is holding me back.

Justin:

One person, simultaneously possessing two natures, two intellects, and two wills. Omnimpresent, omnipotent, ominiscient and locally present, able to suffer and die, and grow in wisdom.

I cannot imagine what it means to be omnipresent and locally present. I don’t know what “two wills” means. You seem to have a good grasp of the concept. I just don’t.

In the meantime, I don’t see what harm there would be in me keeping my mental image of Jesus being a divine person with a human nature, since that is something I can imagine.

 

[1962Missal]

Angainor:

Justin,

ISTM?

You make some excellent points. Perhaps it is the limit of my imagination that is holding me back.I cannot imagine what it means to be omnipresent and locally present. I don’t know what “two wills” means. You seem to have a good grasp of the concept. I just don’t.

In the meantime, I don’t see what harm there would be in me keeping my mental image of Jesus being a divine person with a human nature, since that is something I can imagine.

ISTM=It seems to me. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: two wills. Try this link for a brief discussion of the concept.

Your description of Jesus as a divine person with a human nature is a good start, but one must remember that He was, at all times, 100% God and 100% Man. He didn’t switch His divinity off when He became man.

Justin

 

[Ignatius]

Jesus was able to do miracles. Todays’ Gospel may apply:
John 20:19-31
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, . . .Jesus came and stood in their midst. . . . Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. . . . But he said to them, “Unless Isee the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and mut my hand into his side, I will not believe.”. . .His disciples were again inside and Tomas wis with them. Jesus came, although the door was locked, and stood in their midst. . . . Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your and an put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.”

May God always bless and keep you in his divine love.