The First Vision Versions

[TexanKnight]

We have an LDS guest who claims there are contradictions between the various versions of the alleged First Vision.

Let’s see for ourselves and let the readers be the judges…

First Vision

1832-
Who- Joseph’s Hand
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- In 16th Year
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- The Lord
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, Silent Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages and many angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven, Jesus is Son of God

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Just Angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- No Message

1840
Who- Joseph told Orson Pratt
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in a Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- Churches teaching incorrect doctrines
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

1842
Who- Times and Seasons, Church History
Date/Place- Early Spring 1820, The Woods
His Age- 14
Revival- Yes, added later
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

July 1843
Who- Joseph Letter to Daniel Rupp
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- Not mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

August 1843
Who- Joseph to a journalist
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- About 14
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

May 1844
Who- Joseph in his diary
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- not mentioned
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages, one has light complexion and blue eyes
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Methodist Church Wrong, all Churches in error

As it has been discussed, the first published version of the “first vision” did not happen until 1832.

However, was it really Joseph’s vision? Apart from the 9 incredible different versions of the vision, there is another question.

In 1816, a man named Solomon Chamberlain had his own “vision”. He published his vision in a pamphlet in 1829. He lived about 20 miles from Palmayra and actually visited Joseph Smith in 1829.

Chamberlain’s published version (which was published prior to Joseph’s) read like this:

“The Lord showed me in a vision that there was no people on the earth that was right, and that faith was gone from the earth, excepting a few and that all churches were corrupt.”

Being published priuor to Joe’s version, this certainly raises the spector that, as Joe did with the Book of Mormon and the temple ceremonies, Joe just lifted this vision to make his own 3 years later.

Of course, I am not suggesting that Joe only used Chamberlain. There was apparently a rash of “visions” in the Palmyra area prior to Joe deciding to jump on the bandwagon in 1932…

1816- Elias Smith- Vermont- had a vision in the woods when he was 16. A light appeared from heaven…

1823- Asa Wild- as printed in the Palmyra’s “Wayne Sentinal” Wild wrote his "mind was struck motionless, was told by God that all denominations were corrupt.

1824- Alexander Campbell- had a vision where he was told his sins were forgivem.

1826- John Thompson, a teacher at Palmyra Academy- Jesus descended from the sky

1830- Stephen Bradley- was 14 (sound familiar?) when HE was visited by Jesus

 

[Nicea325]

We have an LDS guest who claims there are contradictions between the various versions of the alleged First Vision.

Let’s see for ourselves and let the readers be the judges…

First Vision

1832-
Who- Joseph’s Hand
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- In 16th Year
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- The Lord
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, Silent Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages and many angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven, Jesus is Son of God

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Just Angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- No Message

1840
Who- Joseph told Orson Pratt
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in a Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- Churches teaching incorrect doctrines
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

1842
Who- Times and Seasons, Church History
Date/Place- Early Spring 1820, The Woods
His Age- 14
Revival- Yes, added later
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

July 1843
Who- Joseph Letter to Daniel Rupp
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- Not mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

August 1843
Who- Joseph to a journalist
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- About 14
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

May 1844
Who- Joseph in his diary
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- not mentioned
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages, one has light complexion and blue eyes
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Methodist Church Wrong, all Churches in error

As it has been discussed, the first published version of the “first vision” did not happen until 1832.

However, was it really Joseph’s vision? Apart from the 9 incredible different versions of the vision, there is another question.

In 1816, a man named Solomon Chamberlain had his own “vision”. He published his vision in a pamphlet in 1829. He lived about 20 miles from Palmayra and actually visited Joseph Smith in 1829.

Chamberlain’s published version (which was published prior to Joseph’s) read like this:

“The Lord showed me in a vision that there was no people on the earth that was right, and that faith was gone from the earth, excepting a few and that all churches were corrupt.”

Being published priuor to Joe’s version, this certainly raises the spector that, as Joe did with the Book of Mormon and the temple ceremonies, Joe just lifted this vision to make his own 3 years later.

Of course, I am not suggesting that Joe only used Chamberlain. There was apparently a rash of “visions” in the Palmyra area prior to Joe deciding to jump on the bandwagon in 1932…

1816- Elias Smith- Vermont- had a vision in the woods when he was 16. A light appeared from heaven…

1823- Asa Wild- as printed in the Palmyra’s “Wayne Sentinal” Wild wrote his "mind was struck motionless, was told by God that all denominations were corrupt.

1824- Alexander Campbell- had a vision where he was told his sins were forgivem.

1826- John Thompson, a teacher at Palmyra Academy- Jesus descended from the sky

1830- Stephen Bradley- was 14 (sound familiar?) when HE was visited by Jesus

:bigyikes::ehh::whacky::tsktsk: How is that for an answer?

 

[TexanKnight]

yep…waiting for him to show how these are not contradictory…

 

[TexanKnight]

lol…guess he knows there are contradictions and is afraid to discuss it here

 

[Nicea325]

We have an LDS guest who claims there are contradictions between the various versions of the alleged First Vision.

Let’s see for ourselves and let the readers be the judges…

First Vision

1832-
Who- Joseph’s Hand
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- In 16th Year
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- The Lord
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, Silent Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages and many angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- Sins Forgiven, Jesus is Son of God

1835-
Who- Told to Warren Parish, His Scribe
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Just Angels
Religious Corruption- Not mentioned
Message- No Message

1840
Who- Joseph told Orson Pratt
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in a Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- No revival mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- Churches teaching incorrect doctrines
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

1842
Who- Times and Seasons, Church History
Date/Place- Early Spring 1820, The Woods
His Age- 14
Revival- Yes, added later
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

July 1843
Who- Joseph Letter to Daniel Rupp
Date/Place- No Date, Secret Place in Grove
His Age- About 14
Revival- Not mentioned
Who was there- Two unidentified personages who looked exactly alike
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

August 1843
Who- Joseph to a journalist
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- About 14
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Sins Forgiven, Churches in error

May 1844
Who- Joseph in his diary
Date/Place- No Date, The woods
His Age- not mentioned
Revival- Yes
Who was there- Two personages, one has light complexion and blue eyes
Religious Corruption- All sects corrupt
Message- Methodist Church Wrong, all Churches in error

As it has been discussed, the first published version of the “first vision” did not happen until 1832.

However, was it really Joseph’s vision? Apart from the 9 incredible different versions of the vision, there is another question.

In 1816, a man named Solomon Chamberlain had his own “vision”. He published his vision in a pamphlet in 1829. He lived about 20 miles from Palmayra and actually visited Joseph Smith in 1829.

Chamberlain’s published version (which was published prior to Joseph’s) read like this:

“The Lord showed me in a vision that there was no people on the earth that was right, and that faith was gone from the earth, excepting a few and that all churches were corrupt.”

Being published priuor to Joe’s version, this certainly raises the spector that, as Joe did with the Book of Mormon and the temple ceremonies, Joe just lifted this vision to make his own 3 years later.

Of course, I am not suggesting that Joe only used Chamberlain. There was apparently a rash of “visions” in the Palmyra area prior to Joe deciding to jump on the bandwagon in 1932…

1816- Elias Smith- Vermont- had a vision in the woods when he was 16. A light appeared from heaven…

1823- Asa Wild- as printed in the Palmyra’s “Wayne Sentinal” Wild wrote his "mind was struck motionless, was told by God that all denominations were corrupt.

1824- Alexander Campbell- had a vision where he was told his sins were forgivem.

1826- John Thompson, a teacher at Palmyra Academy- Jesus descended from the sky

1830- Stephen Bradley- was 14 (sound familiar?) when HE was visited by Jesus

yep…waiting for him to show how these are not contradictory…

I cannot believe this individual does not “see” the contradictions?

 

[jakasaki]

Awe ~

You’ve got to give folks time to reply - not every member hangs here 24/7

 

[TexanKnight]

Awe ~

You’ve got to give folks time to reply - not every member hangs here 24/7

He has responded several times on a different thread and advised about this one…he knows

 

[jakasaki]

He has responded several times on a different thread and advised about this one…he knows

Alrightythen!!!

Carry on!

 

[jakasaki]

1832-
Who- Joseph’s Hand
Date/Place- No date, No location
His Age- In 16th Year

I have a stupid question:

How can he be 16 years old in 1832 when he was born in 1805

Shouldn’t that make him 27 years of age…???

 

[NeuroTypical]

1835-
Who was there- Two unidentified personages and many angels

1835-
Who was there- Just Angels

Texan: Would you consider this to be an example of a contradiction?

Also, could you clarify which is the diary account, and which is the Erastus Holmes/Millenial Star account? It seems to me that the word “Just” would indicate a contradiction. But when I read the exact text of both accounts, the word “just” is in neither of them.

(Oh, and in the interest of seeing for ourselves and letting the readers be the judges, I’m getting the source texts from this place.)

 

[Bonnie]

We have an LDS guest who claims there are contradictions between the various versions of the alleged First Vision.

I didn’t see anything wrong with this claim until I realized you meant to write that the LDS guest “claims there are NO contridictions.”

 

[twopekinguys]

We must also consider that the “first vision” wasn’t taught until 22 years after it supposedly happened.

In between that time, and the time it was taught, Smith also tried to join the Methodist Church.

All of this adds to the contradictions, don’t you think?

 

[Bonnie]

How can he be 16 years old in 1832 when he was born in 1805

Shouldn’t that make him 27 years of age…???

I’m not sure if “Joseph’s Hand” refers to a title or just that he wrote it himself, in his own hand. 1832 was the date he wrote the account; 16 was the age he claimed to be when the vision happened.

NO question is stupid. Well, maybe some, but not that one.

 

[TexanKnight]

Yes…I believe saying only one person there and later two were there and then two were there plus angels and then ionly angels are definite contradictions. Don’t you?

 

[kimg901]

Yes…I believe saying only one person there and later two were there and then two were there plus angels and then ionly angels are definite contradictions. Don’t you?

Hey TK. A few weeks ago the missionaries came over and told me “Smiths first vision was from the devil trying to decieve him by telling him all churches were corrupt”. I have never heard this before, have you?

 

[TexanKnight]

Hey TK. A few weeks ago the missionaries came over and told me “Smiths first vision was from the devil trying to decieve him by telling him all churches were corrupt”. I have never heard this before, have you?

no

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexanKnight
1835-
Who was there- Two unidentified personages and many angels

1835-
Who was there- Just Angels

Texan: Would you consider this to be an example of a contradiction?

Also, could you clarify which is the diary account, and which is the Erastus Holmes/Millenial Star account? It seems to me that the word “Just” would indicate a contradiction. But when I read the exact text of both accounts, the word “just” is in neither of them.

(Oh, and in the interest of seeing for ourselves and letting the readers be the judges, I’m getting the source texts from this place.)

And who cares if the word “just” is not in either of them. Remove it and says: Angels

and the other account reads: Two unidentified personages and many angels

How could you not see the contradictions?

 

[LivingWaters7]

Hey TK. A few weeks ago the missionaries came over and told me “Smiths first vision was from the devil trying to decieve him by telling him all churches were corrupt”. I have never heard this before, have you?

That doesn’t even make sense within LDS theology.

 

[kimg901]

That doesn’t even make sense within LDS theology.

Thats why I asked TK. It blew my mind when the 2 missionaries said it. I stood there with that dumb look and didnt know what to say. Where would they get that from I wonder?

 

[NeuroTypical]

NeuroTypical;10785131:

1835-
Who was there- Two unidentified personages and many angels

1835-
Who was there- Just Angels

Texan: Would you consider this to be an example of a contradiction?

It seems to me that the word “Just” would indicate a contradiction. But when I read the exact text of both accounts, the word “just” is in neither of them.Yes…I believe saying only one person there and later two were there and then two were there plus angels and then ionly angels are definite contradictions. Don’t you?

Wait - your first claim was the phrase “just angels”. Now you are revising your claim to what the account says to “only one person there”?

Texan, where are you getting your sources, and why do you keep changing your claim about what the accounts say? It’s hard to respond to your criticisms, when they keep changing.

And again, I need to ask you a second time to clarify which 1835 account supposedly says “just angels” or “only one person there”.

Again, the link I posted above to the source text, shows us that neither account uses the word “just”. And now that I look again, neither account makes the claim of “only one person”. Texan, you seem to be having a problem accurately relating what the different accounts actually say. I’m sure you’re not trying to be intentionally misleading here, but obviously something is going on.

And who cares if the word “just” is not in either of them. Remove it and says: Angels

and the other account reads: Two unidentified personages and many angels

How could you not see the contradictions?

Wait a minute, Nicea. I’m not sure you understand what a contradiction is. Let’s say I tell a friend at lunch today, “I was arguing with a Catholic about contradictions this morning”. Then later this evening, I tell my wife “I was arguing online with Catholics about first vision accounts”. Have I contradicted myself? Have I lied? Of course I haven’t. Even though only one account says anything about being online, both accounts are correct. Even though one account mentions one Catholic, and the other mentions several, both accounts are correct. Even though I tell one person I’m arguing about contradictions, and I tell another person I’m arguing about first vision accounts, both accounts are correct.