The flood Local or Worldwide

[SeraficLeo]

Agreed yet evolutionists would consider this to be a fairy tale.

Yet some interpret evolution and conclude (as you pointed out) that in order for there to be rebirth, renewal, progress/advancement/evolution, then death is necessary. Christianity speaks of the need to die to sin to find rebirth and newness of life. It also speaks of a Saviour who died for our sins on the cross, something we (being sinners) could not meaningfully do insofar as we are all tainted with and from sin.

But insofar as they think science teaches the necessity of death for progress and even life itself to be possible (via consuming living things), then how can they seriously dismiss what we say, teach and believe as mere ‘fairy tales’ when they essentially believe the same things?

 

[vz71]

My original post was because I had a discussion with a Catholic couple who defended vehemently the fact that the flood was universal. They wouldn’t listen because the “Arc” that they had visited said that the flood was worldwide. I came here is hopes that somebody would give me the reasoned Catholic response

The flood was as big as it needed to be to accomplish God’s purpose.

 

[Lane]

Then that would make God a liar, because there have been floods since then. I think the whole world was wiped out…

 

[whatistrue]

Perhaps you would benefit

Perhaps you would benefit from a more complete reading of the actual teaching of the Church. You are free to believe a global Flood, a literal 6-day Creation, etc. but no one is required to do so. Welcome to the Ignore bucket. It is a little light on tenants at the moment, but I am sure the population will increase as time goes on.

 

[jimXroberts]

Most ancient Middle Eastern peoples have a flood narrative. These probably date back to the cataclysmic events that occurred after the Mediterranean broke through the land dam on the Bosporus and flooded huge swathes of land before eventually settling into the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. However the legends have become intertwined with the periodic flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates (as in the legend of Gilgamesh). Noah, his ark (the word meant box, not ship) and the animals have formed part of Hebrew folklore for a very long time.

Around 903BC, the Hebrew people split into two Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom of Israel including Samaria and the Southern Kingdom of Judah including Jerusalem. It is the people of the Southern Kingdom who were called Jews. In the 7th century BC, Israel became a vassal state of the Assyrian Empire. Judah held out but were eventually overrun by the Assyrians and the population of Jerusalem were carried off to exile in Babylon. The Babylonian Empire was conquered by Cyrus of Persia in 539BC and the various subjugated peoples were allowed to return to their homelands. Cyrus was particularly interested in folklore and he asked that all of the nations wrote down their oral traditions and laws. The first 5 books of the Bible were the result - apart from Genesis 1.1 - 2.3 which was added some 200 years later. The only people with the facility to write long documents were the scribes of the priestly caste and they gave everything a moralising twist.

The people of the Kingdom of Israel were regarded as traitors by Jews and they were (and still are) called Samaritans. They shared the same oral traditions, but their version is rather different to the Jewish version. There’s a lot less divine intervention and the story of Noah and his box of animals is a little more like that of Gilgamesh.

 

[butterlover]

The Bible was not written by God, but by people who did not know how big the world was.
Also, I don’t understand how “floods since then” mean Noah’s story is literal and historically accurate or not.

Maybe the whole “world” as the ancient Jews knew it, was flooded. That doesn’t equal “entire globe of Earth” was flooded. We really have to understand the Jewish history of how the people who lives thousands of years ago recorded and wrote their stories down. It’s not as simple as saying everything in the Bible is true and literal no matter what.

 

[Mishakel]

A young earth is in direct contradiction to science.

Perhaps you would benefit from a more complete reading of the actual teaching of the Church

I’m not Catholic so I’m not bound in any way to what their organization deems dogmatic concerning the 6 day creation, the flood, or any other scriptural event.

There are a lot of scientific evidences (observable) that prove the earth is young. I said I believe in a world wide flood as scripture says and you said this.

Please take a basic earth science course

I’m still waiting for scientific answers for what you believe, ie big bang, time space and matter creating itself and then creating a universe in which that can’t be accomplished… etc…

 

[SaberBob]

Mishakel,

SOME scientists, such as the late Stephen Hawking, descended into circular reasoning fallacy to say the Big Bang means the universe created itself, but the majority of cosmologists don’t hold that position.

The very label “Big Bang” was intended as a slur, created by the virilant atheist astronomer, Sir Fred Hoyle, who saw the BB as an excuse for introducing God into into cosmology. I find it very ironic to claim the BB mandates atheism when the evidence for it’s validity converted not only Hoyle to theism, but the late Anthony Flew, an atheist who gave CS Lewis fits in debate.

Seriously, the “evidence” for young Earth/Universe is laughable, the arguments supporting it so strained, so special pleading, that it utterly alienates many educated people from the Faith.

 

[Anrakyr]

One poster in this thread already stated a worldwide flood isn’t physically possible. What about turning water to wine? What about walking on water? What about causing the blind to see or the cripple to walk? What about a man being filled with the Holy Spirit allowing them to speak all languages? What about raising yourself from the dead 3 days after you died?

The problem with a world wide flood is there are established cultures that kept living during the time the flood would have been.

Mainly Egypt.

Founded in 3500BC assuming for fun we go by James Ussher Archbishop of Ireland who claims creation of the world was 4004BC and the flood was 1600 years later.

Sadly that means Egypt was completely destroyed and refounded as if nothing happens almost instantly?

Silly mankind, all things are possible to the almighty God of Heaven. Oh ye of little faith.

Those things don’t have far reaching implications of themselves to wipe out or spare an entire society.

Faith is not all filler plot insulation.

 

[vz71]

The problem with a world wide flood is there are established cultures that kept living during the time the flood would have been.

Without knowing precisely when the flood occurred, it is difficult to make such a claim.

I see a cursory attempt at using a date based on some creationists work, but such work could easily be in error. And the issue becomes an issue only for the one creationists theory.

 

[Anrakyr]

I see a cursory attempt at using a date based on some creationists work, but such work could easily be in error. And the issue becomes an issue only for the one creationists theory.

Well that’s just the rub isn’t it? We had humans living in north and south America for over 10 thousand years. While conveniently they have a myth story of a flood (which id like to point out is a common fear for anyone who used to dwell along the pacific rim) that slaps them 6 thousand years before Eden. Even if you account for there being a thousand years discrepancy how do you get people back to NA SA over a land bridge that no longer exists?

It wasn’t global.

 

[vz71]

Well that’s just the rub isn’t it?

It is.
Without an accurate mapping of the entire surface of the earth going back as far as we man, it would be difficult to claim there was never a global flood.

I stand by my earlier statement.

 

[Anrakyr]

It is.
Without an accurate mapping of the entire surface of the earth going back as far as we man, it would be difficult to claim there was never a global flood.

I stand by my earlier statement.

You appeal to ignorance doesn’t hold water. We know the shape of the land thousand years ago because plate drift is something we can measure. Otherwise of the last five hundred years modern society has been present in the new world we would have noticed a faster drift.

Your point is moot.

 

[edwest211]

Yet one side posts the same question on a regular basis.

 

[edwest211]

From the Catechism:

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture . "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

[107] The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

 

[vz71]

You appeal to ignorance doesn’t hold water.

Sure it does.
Tectonic plate drifting may give us an idea of what land was where in history, but it is not going to tell you if all or part of it was under water for a brief time.

My original supposition holds.

 

[TARRAT]

I love this answer! Kind of makes both sides right, just like the church says.

 

[vz71]

It has that advantage.
Thank you.

 

[Anrakyr]

I love this answer! Kind of makes both sides right, just like the church says.

To me, it sounds like hedging your bets.

Sure it does.
Tectonic plate drifting may give us an idea of what land was where in history, but it is not going to tell you if all or part of it was under water for a brief time.

My original supposition holds.

There is a lovely area east of England that once was above water until landmasses moved so no.
see Doggerland.

 

[vz71]

To me, it sounds like hedging your bets.

It is.
I bet the flood happened.
I also bet that God is not a local phenomenon.
If he needed a global flood, than it was global.