The Forbidden Subject: The Ordination of Women

[simpleas]

Are you serious? That website that you list is maintained by the Wijngaards Institute for Catholic Research. They push for among other things the reversal of Church teachings on contraception and homosexuality. I’m quite sure then that they’ll be most unbiased in their presentation for the cause of women priests…no animosity there! How many threads does this make for you now simpleas that you’ve started on this subject? Seems to be borderline obsession.

Peace, Mark

Peace??

Maybe I’m still searching, is that a crime…

 

[reggieM]

The question wasn’t about the priests hands being anointed with oil, it was why nuns even by taking a solemn vow had to wear gloves to touch the vessels.

Non-ordained men with solemn vows had to wear gloves also. It wasn’t restricted to women.

Why was this important back then, and is most relaxed now, that even non consecrated women and men can hold the vessels. We even take the host by hand and hold the chalice during communion.

Why was this relaxed?

Norms for receiving communion changed along with many other aspects of the Roman Rite liturgy during the period of 1955 through the mid 1970s or so. Currently, there are two forms of the Roman Rite - the Ordinary Form which is what is used in most parishes, and the Extraordinary Form, which retains the rules in place previously.
Why rules were changed or relaxed goes back to the Vatican II documents and the Liturgical Movement that took place at the beginning of the 20th century.

 

[reggieM]

Peace??

Maybe I’m still searching, is that a crime…

To argue obstinately against an infallibly defined teaching, for example, would not be a good thing to do.

 

[Mark121359]

Peace??

Maybe I’m still searching, is that a crime…

No crime. But it seems that you’re always searching for an answer that differs from the one and only that the Church has always held. And when that search leads you to websites that clearly promotes heretical views, then you need to question the motives for your searching.

Peace, Mark

 

[pnewton]

No crime. But it seems that you’re always searching for an answer that differs from the one and only that the Church has always held. And when that search leads you to websites that clearly promotes heretical views, then you need to question the motives for your searching.

It is okay if she wants to question her motives. We should not. If one cannot in good conscience agree with a church teaching, it may be that the search for understanding lasts a life time. Many a convert has taken a lifetime to understand some of the Marian teaching. God is patient. We should be too. By no means should we question anyone’s motive. This is a very hard point for some to understand.

 

[Mark121359]

It is okay if she wants to question her motives. We should not. If one cannot in good conscience agree with a church teaching, it may be that the search for understanding lasts a life time. Many a convert has taken a lifetime to understand some of the Marian teaching. God is patient. We should be too. By no means should we question anyone’s motive. This is a very hard point for some to understand.

Searching for understanding is fine. But not at that website or other such sites where truth is scant at best. If you find yourself having difficulty understanding what the Church teaches, then you need to do a better job at searching those sites which explains what the RCC actually teaches. It took me less than two minutes to find out that the link that the OP provided was biased against Church teaching on this topic and others as well.

Peace, Mark

 

[mkoopman]

I think the reason why …

Thus its not unreasonable to think that an all male priesthood is simply a continuation of an ancient prejudice against women.

Maybe Jesus chose men at that time because he knew that men were far too ignorant, arrogant and prejudice to accept a woman as having the authority of a priest.

That seems like a likely scenario to me. I see no other reason why God would not consider a women as a priest.

If Jesus were not God, King of Kings, the Second Person seated at the right hand of The Father this might be conceivable. Jesus is not a politician with an ego so large that this public servant knows better than God. He is God and chose to ordain only men as priests. This is why the church states She has no authority to ordain women, that simple, nothing more.

Of course The Magisterium recognizes the difference between men and women as science will also in 200 years from now. The reason for ordaining only men is because Jesus established the Sacrament of Holy Orders as He established all the Sacraments. The Magisterium must do what He says, as Mary reminds us.

The Church does not speculate about the differences but accepts the truth of the complementary natures of male and female. She does not identify male and female traits or duties as the orientation of the priesthood, only that this is what God, in the direct actions of Jesus established. She then has no authority to change what Jesus established, that simple and that clear. Our personal sin may cloud this as an imperfection. Take it up with Jesus when you converse with Him next because The Magisterium may not change His Sacraments.

I accept the legend of St. Brigid ordained as a Bishop. The legend has it that she never effected her “right” to consecrate the species. She knew better as a Scripture scholar and we should, also.

St. Brigid, pray for us.

 

[Wesrock]

The point being no woman can ever be as near to ordination or be ordained as a man can.

No woman can receive the laying on of hands.

Correct.

 

[simpleas]

It is okay if she wants to question her motives. We should not. If one cannot in good conscience agree with a church teaching, it may be that the search for understanding lasts a life time. Many a convert has taken a lifetime to understand some of the Marian teaching. God is patient. We should be too. By no means should we question anyone’s motive. This is a very hard point for some to understand.

Thank you.

 

[Gorgias]

The point being no woman can ever be as near to ordination or be ordained as a man can.

No… the point of the quote you cited for us is merely that, in that era, no one who had not been ordained could touch the sacred vessels with bare hands. No one.

It wasn’t because they were women.
It wasn’t because, even being nuns, they were ‘different’ than other lay people.
It wasn’t because they were “as near” to ordination as anyone else.
It wasn’t because they were “less near” to ordination as anyone else.

It was merely a way of saying “only priests can do X”.

Those who wish to take that quote and hype it as having a gender-based dimension… well, let’s just say that they have an agenda.

 

[Brendan_64]

So if a women feels called to the preisthood she is delusional, is that what you are saying?

If she feels called to be a priest, then how can she be anything other than misguided. It is settled Church teaching that women cannot be priests, that this is an impossibility. This has been declared as infallible under the ordinary magisterium.

Would God call someone to become something that is impossible for them to become?

 

[Peebo]

Not sure if this is exactly relevant to the subject…but didn’t God command that only Levites could carry the Ark of The Covenant…and that only Levites could be priests…so one could argue that other Jews were discriminated against…but that’s not what God commanded…and the Son of God only chose men (his disciples) to be priests of the New Covenant…which is what we now have in the Catholic Church

 

[simpleas]

No… the point of the quote you cited for us is merely that, in that era, no one who had not been ordained could touch the sacred vessels with bare hands. No one.

It wasn’t because they were women.
It wasn’t because, even being nuns, they were ‘different’ than other lay people.
It wasn’t because they were “as near” to ordination as anyone else.
It wasn’t because they were “less near” to ordination as anyone else.

It was merely a way of saying “only priests can do X”.

Those who wish to take that quote and hype it as having a gender-based dimension… well, let’s just say that they have an agenda.

Maybe they do have an agenda, but there is much information on that website from early church documents that evidence how woman were perceived in the early church and how much this has changed through the centuries.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

It seems clear from the Gospels that Jesus was quite explicit about correcting the misinterpretations and abuses of OT laws among the Jewish people.

Yet one thing He did not do was correct their understanding of Patriarchy and male leadership in the people of God.

In fact, when given the opportunity to hand pick 12 select, special followers; Jesus chose exclusively men. 12 chances to correct the Jewish understanding of male leadership, and 12 affirmations that only men should serve as leaders in the Church.

This is not to say that Jesus does not bless and empower women as great and mighty warriors of God. One would only have to look at the special blessings He bestowed upon His own Mother to refute that idea.

But when it comes to the role of Pastor, only adult men should serve as a spiritual authority over other adult men. This is the way of God.

 

[simpleas]

If she feels called to be a priest, then how can she be anything other than misguided. It is settled Church teaching that women cannot be priests, that this is an impossibility. This has been declared as infallible under the ordinary magisterium.

Would God call someone to become something that is impossible for them to become?

How is it impossible for a woman to receive the laying on of hands and to then carry out the work of Christ.
They are not asking to be changed into a man? Their gender is as much worthy of Christ’s mission as the opposite gender.

Seems from the link I quoted in the OP that people need to see a man act as Jesus in order for them to understand that Jesus was and remains a man, which is a visual effect, because no man becomes Jesus the man-God.
So we leave out half of the image of God when we see only men at the ‘top’ of the spiritual world.
In which way do women image Jesus then? They are not men, so they could not do this.

 

[reggieM]

How is it impossible for a woman to receive the laying on of hands and to then carry out the work of Christ.
They are not asking to be changed into a man? Their gender is as much worthy of Christ’s mission as the opposite gender.

Seems from the link I quoted in the OP that people need to see a man act as Jesus in order for them to understand that Jesus was and remains a man, which is a visual effect, because no man becomes Jesus the man-God.
So we leave out half of the image of God when we see only men at the ‘top’ of the spiritual world.
In which way do women image Jesus then? They are not men, so they could not do this.

If the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church were just man made rules that had nothing to do with God’s Will and were not guided by the Holy Spirit, then you’d have a point. But the official teaching on ordination comes with the promise that Christ gave to the Catholic Church. It reflects the will of God, not just a rule that men wanted.

 

[Thom18]

How is it impossible for a woman to receive the laying on of hands and to then carry out the work of Christ.
They are not asking to be changed into a man? Their gender is as much worthy of Christ’s mission as the opposite gender.

Seems from the link I quoted in the OP that people need to see a man act as Jesus in order for them to understand that Jesus was and remains a man, which is a visual effect, because no man becomes Jesus the man-God.
So we leave out half of the image of God when we see only men at the ‘top’ of the spiritual world.
In which way do women image Jesus then? They are not men, so they could not do this.

A woman could say the words of consecration, could have her hands anointed, and hear confessions: but every sacrament would be invalid. Jesus chose twelve men to carry out His mission. Only to men did He give the power to forgive sins, lay on hands and offer the Eucharist. If Jesus wished to open up the priesthood to women, He would have done or said something that made it a possibility. As another posted said, Jesus had twelve “chances” to correct our understanding of the priesthood, but He didn’t challenge it.

Magesterium aside, Scripture itself makes it abundantly clear that the priesthood is a vocation only men are called to.

 

[Rau]

Peace??

Maybe I’m still searching, is that a crime…

No. Perhaps the means of search is not the best? Prayer may give you more comfort.

 

[Rau]

…and how much this has changed through the centuries.

It is clear that some things are changeable and some things are not. Eg. SSM is rejected for fundamental reasons, not reasons of custom or practice lack of understanding. That some things change does not indicate, and cannot be used as evidence to suggest, that all things are changeable.

 

[Brendan_64]

How is it impossible for a woman to receive the laying on of hands and to then carry out the work of Christ.
They are not asking to be changed into a man? Their gender is as much worthy of Christ’s mission as the opposite gender.

Seems from the link I quoted in the OP that people need to see a man act as Jesus in order for them to understand that Jesus was and remains a man, which is a visual effect, because no man becomes Jesus the man-God.
So we leave out half of the image of God when we see only men at the ‘top’ of the spiritual world.
In which way do women image Jesus then? They are not men, so they could not do this.

It is settled Church teaching and has been declared infallible under the ordinary magisterium. Women cannot act in Persona Christi. Christ was male, women are not male.

Women cannot be ordained as priests, this is settled Church teaching that has been declared infallible. That is that.

As for women not being able to carry out the work of Christ. You don’t have to be a priest in order to carry out the work of Christ, we are all called to carry out the work of Christ.

We are all called to carry out the work of Christ, but only a priest can consecrate the Eucharist, hear Confession and absolve sin, and (as a bishop) ordain priests and deacons, and confirm people. And only men can become priests.