The forgotten Catholic Creed

[Spyridon]

Veneration of icons and indulgences came after that…doesn’t make them wrong… just not deposit of faith stuff

You are wrong my friend.

Veneration of icons is part of the Deposit of Faith - the Deposit of Faith contains both Sacred Scripture and Tradition, and both veneration of icons and indulgences are part of that Deposit of Faith.

The iconoclast heresy which swept the East in the 2nd half of the first Christian millennium was so bad that an entire Ecumenical Council was convoked over the issue, and that Council asserted that the Veneration if icons was part of the Apostolical Faith.

They are non essential in the sense that one does not need to have a great devotion to their usage. They are NOT non essential in the sense that one can deny the efficacy, holiness, or orthodoxy of such things.

If a Catholic says “meh, I don’t much care for the usage of icons, but to each their own” - that’s fine.

If a Catholic says “icons are superstitious nonsense and anyone who uses them is stuck in the middle ages” - major problem. That’s heretical.

 

[concretecamper1]

"…I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either kind alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.

I constantly hold that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls therein detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful. Likewise, that the saints, reigning together with Christ, are to be honored and invoked, and that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated.

I most firmly assert that the images of Christ, of the Mother of God, ever virgin, and also of other Saints, ought to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration is to be given them.

I also affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the Church, and that the use of them is most wholesome to Christian people.

I acknowledge the Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church as the mother and mistress of all churches; and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ.

I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all other things delivered, defined, and declared by the sacred Canons, and general Councils, and particularly by the holy Council of Trent, and by the ecumenical Council of the Vatican, particularly concerning the primacy of the Roman Pontiff and his infallible teaching. I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the Church hath condemned, rejected, and anathematized.

This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, inviolate and with firm constancy until the last breath of life, I do so profess and swear to maintain with the help of God. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels."

Me thinks this is a bit too non-ecumenical for the post V II church. Personally, I like it.

 

[godisgood77]

You are wrong my friend.

I’m afraid I would need more than your word on this one… trust but verify…Can you make a reference to where indulgences and icons are contained in revelation?

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

To an extent yes. Because Protestantism has become so mainstream, people forget that they still profess heretical beliefs. They be Christians but they are still heretical and erroneous in their condemnation of the one true church.

 

[Spyridon]

Can you make a reference to where indulgences and icons are contained in revelation?

Yes.

The 2nd Ecumenical Council of Nicea which affirmed Icons, and the Council of Trent which affirmed Indulgences.

Indulgences and icons are part of the Deposit of Faith.

 

[godisgood77]

Yes.

The 2nd Ecumenical Council of Nicea which affirmed Icons, and the Council of Trent which affirmed Indulgences.

Indulgences and icons are part of the Deposit of Faith.

Good. We agree then…Not from Revelation which ended with the death of the last apostle. The Church has a living tradition so it’s fine that they were added afterward.

 

[Spyridon]

agree then…Not from Revelation which ended with the death of the last apostle. The Church has a living tradition so it’s fine that they were added afterward.

Nope, we don’t agree.

They were dogmatically defined at those Councils. They were contained in the Deposit of Faith given to the Apostles. Everything which has been defined in the later centuries was contained in at least a “seed” form in the Deposit of Faith - such as the Trinity, the Eucharist, etc.

Is the Trinity not part of Revelation since it wasn’t defined until Nicea in the 4th century?

Is Papal Infallibility not part of Revelation because it wasn’t defined until the 19th century?

Your understanding of the Deposit of Faith is not the understanding of the Church.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If someone’s “creed requirement” keeps leveling up, at what point are they a “real Catholic” then?

Suppose someone has been practicing the faith like a champ for 10 years, then levels up to the Athanasian Creed and hits a snag?

What if they’re fine staying at level 0 with the Apostles’ Creed, and don’t really want to get that deep into the background of the Fatih?

 

[Spyridon]

someone’s “creed requirement” keeps leveling up, at what point are they a “real Catholic” then

It’s not a requirement.

It’s for people who want to plum the depths of Catholic spirituality and doctrine ever deeper.

Although I’d also say it’s a kind of litmus test of orthodoxy.

If someone can’t honestly recite the Tridentine Creed, I’d say their orthodoxy is questionable at best. Everything contained in it is everything the Church teaches today.

 

[Maxwell03]

By any chance could this still be said during the sacrifice of the mass?

 

[thistle]

Lol, what?

A Creed formulated in an Ecumenical Council and promulgated in a Papal bull shouldn’t be spoken of or encouraged for use because that’s “dictating to the Church?”

Uhhh… How’s this. If you want to go down that route @thistle, then I will argue that YOU are trying to dictate to the Church by trying to suppress and discourage a traditional Creed which was formulated and promulgated by the highest levels of the Catholic Magisterium (a Council and a Papal bull).

I am not suppressing anything. The Church states which of the Creeds may be used at Mass, not me and not you. You are the one that brought this Creed up out of the blue and suggested we should be using it at Mass!! Don’t be so arrogant!

 

[thistle]

If someone can’t honestly recite the Tridentine Creed, I’d say their orthodoxy is questionable at best. Everything contained in it is everything the Church teaches today.

Again you are dictating and telling Catholics they are not real Catholics if they do not recite this Creed. Sheer arrogance. You should be ashamed of yourself!

 

[Spyridon]

are the one that brought this Creed up out of the blue and suggested we should be using it at Mass

When and where did I ever suggest illicitly using this Creed at Mass?

I expect an immediate retraction of your fallacious assertion.

 

[Spyridon]

Again you are dictating and telling Catholics they are not real Catholics if they do not recite this Creed. Sheer arrogance. You should be ashamed of yourself!

If a Catholic can’t recite this Creed in truth, then they don’t believe in what the Church teaches.

A Catholic who denies Church teaching isn’t a Catholic at all - rather, he is a heretic.

And I totally agree @thistle - I should be totally ashamed of myself for expecting Catholics to be orthodox. How dare I not be totally okay with heretics in the Church!

 

[Spyridon]

any chance could this still be said during the sacrifice of the mass?

It could be said before or after the Liturgy, or it could be said as part of the Homily.

But it cannot be said in the place of the Creed during Mass - the Nicene or Apostles Creed are the only Creeds authorized for liturgical use as the Creed in Mass.

 

[godisgood77]

Your understanding of the Deposit of Faith is not the understanding of the Church.

There is more to this … looks like we are heading in to the Big T, Little T discussion relative to the Church’s tradition.

A distinction is made between Tradition and tradition. Essentially the point is this: that Tradition (big “T”) is irreformable, while tradition (small “t”) is changeable.

Big “T” tradition, also called Divine Tradition, is that Tradition which constitutes a remote rule of faith for Catholics, next to and equal to the authority of the scriptures themselves. This Tradition is intrinsic to the Deposit of Faith. But small “t” traditions, on the other hand, are those traditions which are not intrinsic to the Deposit of Faith, for example, liturgy and discipline. Hence they are called “extrinsic” or “ecclesiastical” traditions.

Veneration of icons and indulgences are small t traditions and are extrinsic to the Deposit of Faith… I’m sure you already know this…

I stand by my original post… glad this Creed has fallen out of use because it includes these things that are not central to the religion.

 

[thistle]

If a Catholic can’t recite this Creed in truth, then they don’t believe in what the Church teaches.

That is an arrogant and ridiculous judgement of all Catholics. You really should be ashamed of yourself!!