The four Marian dogmas

[newbie1234]

So hoosierdaddy,

Why is that Jesus Himself used these seven books in His life? Also answer me this who and when did God tell reject the seven books. You do know that Calvin also wanted some of the NT removed. Also why did God decided to reveal the false hood of the seven books 1500 years after the Christian faith started. Do you think He was just psyched out the first Christians?

The books were removed in the late first century some 80 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection. and for some 1400+ years these seven books were used by Christians and ECF who never once mentioned they were wrong.

Did Jesus ever quote apocrypha as recorded in the Gospels?

 

[st_lucy]

Jews don’t accept the apocrypha.

And the Jews had no right to remove these books God had already came so the OT could not be changed because it had already been fulled.

 

[Reformed1]

So hoosierdaddy,

Why is that Jesus Himself used these seven books in His life? Also answer me this who and when did God tell reject the seven books. You do know that Calvin also wanted some of the NT removed. Also why did God decided to reveal the false hood of the seven books 1500 years after the Christian faith started. Do you think He was just psyched out the first Christians?

The books were removed in the late first century some 80 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection. and for some 1400+ years these seven books were used by Christians and ECF who never once mentioned they were wrong.

The septuagint also contained books that neither Catholic or Protestant consider inspired or canonical, 3 Maccabees for example.

The fact that the septuagint contained your deuterocanonicals means absolutely nothing.

Also, are you sure that there wasn’t a single ECF who rejected all or a protion of the deutero’s. Pope Gregory rejected one of the Maccabee books and even Catholic apologists will admit this.

 

[st_lucy]

Did Jesus ever quote apocrypha as recorded in the Gospels?

I like this quote for this answer.

Following this reasoning, we’d have to throw out the eight other Old Testament books—such as the Song of Songs—that are also not quoted in the New Testament. If we’re not willing to do that, we have to agree that the absence of a quote in the New Testament does not suggest that a book is not inspired.

Though there are no quotes, the New Testament does make numerous allusions to the deuterocanonical books. For one strong example, examine Hebrews 11:35: “Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release that they might rise again to a better life.” Nowhere in the Protestant Old Testament can this story be found. One must look to a Catholic Bible to read the story in 2 Maccabees 7.

 

[jmcrae]

Jews don’t accept the apocrypha.

Neither do Christians; I thought we were discussing the Deuterocanon of the Old Testament.

(The Apocrypha is a collection of Gnostic gospels - the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Magdalene, Gospel of Bartholemew, etc.)

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Retranslate?

The Bible was given to us by God, the prophets, and the apostles. It then took the Catholic Church 400 some odd years to decide which books were in there. They even put seven in that did not belong. I’m really quite sick of reading your proud statements that we “got them from you”. We got them from God. Are you aware that sometimes, some of you sound like you are a cult?

Keep telling yourself that Michael. I know the books in Scripture are Scripture because GOD HIMSELF promised to protect and preserve His Word. It didn’t take a religious organization with “cult-like” qualities to do it.

You do realise that God didn’t literally hand over the Bible, don’t you. I sometimes get the feeling that some Protestants believe that when Jesus ascended into Heaven he sent down the King James Version Bible.

The Sacred Scriptures were written by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit. They were not possessed by the Holy Spirit like the demoniacs in the New Testament. They were not stenographers writing as God dictated. They used their own words, with their own personalities and writing styles.

The Scriptures are inspired and the Holy Spirit kept error from them in two ways. One, the writers were inspired while writing. And two, the Holy Catholic Church was inspired and guided while compiling the canon - to know which books were inspired and which were not or questionable.

Also, just because a book isn’t in the Bible, doesn’t mean it isn’t inspired by the Holy Spirit. There are thousands of books written that I feel are inspired by God. But for good reasons (i.e. unknown authorship, not of the Apostolic age, etc.) they have not been included in the canon.

And also remember that Sacred Scriptures isn’t the totality of Divine Revelation. Revelation is a trinity, just like God Himself (i.e. it mirrors God). There is Sacred Tradition, the source of Revelation. There is Sacred Scripture, the Word of God, which is begotten by Tradition. And there is the Magesterium, the living spirit of Revelation.

 

[joshua_b]

Dissident Catholics weren’t the topic though. The poster said she thought Catholics had to agree on both those things.

Since we can be deceived by our own hearts, by men, by religious organizations, the only source we can go to is the Bible. In reading the Bible we can pray to God to teach us. He can use teachers but when they teach error they are to be rejected. Isn’t it a bit cultic to threaten people for not accepting their “Church’s teachings”? The Church can be in error, Scripture is never wrong.

The topic is not dissident Catholics, and it is not your opinion of the Truth of these teachings either. If you have a problem with them, then you are more than welcome to start your own thread on every one of them and show the whole forum how wrong they really are. Now let us please stick to the topic.

The four statements of the OP are correct, in that they are articles of Catholic faith. As a Catholic, you are required to accept them as Truth (but bear in mind there is a difference between “doubt” and “rejection”…that subject involves some very deep theology, and would completely derail this thread), and more importantly, ANY Catholic Church, anywhere in the world, officially teaches these things.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The Bible also says that “all have sinned”. This includes Mary. To deny this is to ascribe divinity to her…just as I said before. Jesus was the only human who never sinned.

How so? Why should we find a Bible verse that proves Mary sinned when you’ve already been given one that you reject? Why would you even ASK for Scripture when you already rejected the Scripture you were given. It SAYS “all have sinned”. What part of that do you not understand???

Can you find me a verse in Scripture that says that Mary did not, better yet could not, sin? Waiting.

The verse where all have sinned is “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom 3:23). This does not mean all. If it did then it would mean Jesus sinned - you do believe that Jesus was truly human, right. But we know from other Scriptural verses (not to mention Tradition) that Jesus was sinless, an unblemished victim. Therefore, while this verse does not prove Mary’s sinlessness or Immaculate Conception, it cannot be used to prove that she did sin.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

These verses seem to confirm that there was no pit stop on the way to heaven
NT
Matthew 25:34

Deals with the General Judgement at the end of the world, not with the Particular Judgement at the moment of death.

Luke 16:22

Deals with a just and righteous man who has no need of Purgatory. Also, relates to the fact that not everyone will end up in the same destination after death.

Luke 23:42-43

This deals with a man who makes an admission of faith on his deathbed and has his Particular Judgement while still hanging on the cross.

John 14:2-3

Jesus says that He goes to prepare a place for us in Heaven. Everyone in Purgatory goes to Heaven, but not everyone in Heaven has had to suffer through Purgatory.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8

Again deals with the fact that not everyone will end up in the same spot and that everyone will have a Particular Judgement.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Deals with the Second Coming.

Revelation 7:14-17

Speaks of the rewards of Heaven - and also sounds like martyrs.

Psalm 49:15

Deals with the atonement of mankind.

Psalm 73:24-25

Again deals with rewards of Heaven.

Isaiah 57:1-2

Good people go to Heaven. Yeah?

Daniel 12:13

Again, good people go to Heaven.

These verses deal primarily with the final destination, good guys go to Heaven and bad guys go to hell. Not everyone goes to Purgatory, some will go straight to Heaven (i.e. the poor man and the good thief). Purgatory is not a final destination. It is a purification prior to Heaven. All those in Purgatory will enter into Heaven. Nowhere in these verses is a denial of Purgatory. Now look at these verses which highlight Purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:38-46
Matthew 5:21-26
Matthew 12:32
Matthew 18:21-35
Matthew 22:1-14
Luke 12:58
1 Corinthians 3:10-16
1 Peter 3:19, 4:6
Revelation 21:27

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I am WOMEN so you can call me sister but not son. Thanks

So you’re multiple people? As rude as you’ve been to me I will just say don’t you realize that you said you are “women”. The correct grammar would have been to say, “I am a woman”. You’re welcome.

 

[fix]

Amen! And since I am in Christ and in His Church I am not separated from Him, nor can I ever be. You just got a whole theological lesson in one sentence. I’ll give you a free indulgence but next time you have to pay.

If you believe Christ is telling you something that contradicts what He reveals through His vicar on earth then either your understanding of Church is a grave error or Christ is a liar.

 

[joshua_b]

Hello,

Deals with the General Judgement at the end of the world, not with the Particular Judgement at the moment of death.

Deals with a just and righteous man who has no need of Purgatory. Also, relates to the fact that not everyone will end up in the same destination after death.

This deals with a man who makes an admission of faith on his deathbed and has his Particular Judgement while still hanging on the cross.

Jesus says that He goes to prepare a place for us in Heaven. Everyone in Purgatory goes to Heaven, but not everyone in Heaven has had to suffer through Purgatory.

Again deals with the fact that not everyone will end up in the same spot and that everyone will have a Particular Judgement.

Deals with the Second Coming.

Speaks of the rewards of Heaven - and also sounds like martyrs.

Deals with the atonement of mankind.

Again deals with rewards of Heaven.

Good people go to Heaven. Yeah?

Again, good people go to Heaven.

These verses deal primarily with the final destination, good guys go to Heaven and bad guys go to hell. Not everyone goes to Purgatory, some will go straight to Heaven (i.e. the poor man and the good thief). Purgatory is not a final destination. It is a purification prior to Heaven. All those in Purgatory will enter into Heaven. Nowhere in these verses is a denial of Purgatory. Now look at these verses which highlight Purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:38-46
Matthew 5:21-26
Matthew 12:32
Matthew 18:21-35
Matthew 22:1-14
Luke 12:58
1 Corinthians 3:10-16
1 Peter 3:19, 4:6
Revelation 21:27

Let’s not forget Sacred Tradition (and I’m not talking about Catholic Tradition either)…the Orthodox Jews hold to the same belief in Purgatory. Catholics did not just make this up, this comes straight from God’s revelation to the Israelites, and their history stretches much farther back than ours. This is a revelation of God that was held as Truth long before Christianity even existed.