The Fourth Way

  • Thread starter Thread starter JDaniel
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
1holycatholic:
What you and Dawkins have missed is that it is an ontological argument, not an epistemological one.
While this is true, I would be careful about using “ontological” to describe Thomas’ arguments. It may get confused with Anselm’s ontological argument. Broadly speaking, Thomas’ five ways are metaphysical arguments. Ontology, of course, is a subset of metaphysics, but I only point this out to avoid confusion.
 
While this is true, I would be careful about using “ontological” to describe Thomas’ arguments. It may get confused with Anselm’s ontological argument. Broadly speaking, Thomas’ five ways are metaphysical arguments. Ontology, of course, is a subset of metaphysics, but I only point this out to avoid confusion.
I didn’t mean to confuse it with Anselm’s, DesCartes’ etc. Ontological Arguments
 
Not so. St. Thomas’ entire argument is found in his enunciation of it. It has been mis-cast by some on the thread and elsewhere.
This doesn’t mean anything to me: => his “entire argument is found in his enunciation of it”. That reduces to: what he said is found in his saying of it.

???
As a logical argument it is excellent. While his cause-effect argument has been ineffectively beaten up - in many quarters, by people with ulterior motives - the fourth argument has only been poorly stated. Read again Post 33 above.
Well… “ulterior motives” is a cop-out form of defense; if the argument is misunderstood or miscast, that’s a problem, but just say so. Blaming criticism on “ulterior motives” is disingenuous.

Aquinas provides a textbook case of the composition/division fallacies:

“Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus”

That just doesn’t follow of necessity, which is why this kind of claim is identified as fallacious. I understand the Aristotelian underpinnings of that statement from Aquinas, but to understand it is not to salvage it, logically. The reason we reject such inferences is that the real world provides lots of examples where that isn’t the case, even in abstraction (“maximal heat” is not the cause of all heat – heat is a by-product of other physical interactions in many cases, for example).

So as a matter of Aristotelian metaphysics, it’s a nice homage to the Philosopher. As real-world thinking about physics and metaphysics, it’s really, really obsolete, weak.
In reality, we do compare virtually everything against some perfection of its being. A best result for a math problem, a best car, a best airline, a best life, a best wife, etc. All of these, plus all of the rest, have some standard to be compared against, even though many people will compromise for less than perfection. That process of compromising has led us to believe that there are no real standards by which we can compare.
Well, I used the example of the perfect bowling score, specifically to highlight the problem with that – it’s tautologous when it’s not based on physical constraints. A “perfect bowling score” is perfect because that’s how we defined it. A “perfect airline” is no more an intrinsic feature of reality than a perfect bowling score – this is platonic idealism being projected onto the world around us. We do come up with metrics, qualitative and qualitative, but heat turns out to be a really good refutation of Aquinas’ point – there is no “perfectly hot” ideal, and heat is semantically coherent as a relative term. Perhaps Aquinas would have been better off to choose “cold” as his example; at least then, you could point to Absolute Zero as a maximum.

The point being here that the “perfection” we’re are extrapolating to are just that, and only that, in many cases – extrapolations. If we can say “this is hotter than that”, then by the simple act of ordering “heat” in some scalar fashion, we have implied a maximum, either in logical or *de facto *form. But this is an artifact of measurement and ordering systems, not some Aristotelian “index of being”, or the manifestation of “great-making properties”.
As fire is to hottest, water is to wettest, and photon is to lightest, so, too, God is to that which is the “good-est”, or, “truest”, or, “wisest”, or, “most loving”. We could not have the higher genera without their highest causes, and their causes are not found here on earth. Their causes do not exist in the natural/physical realm. But yet, the genera exist. Any other surrogate standards fail utterly.
It’s instructive to note that the analogical predicates here are physical, quantitative, objective measures (with the possible exception of “wettest”, which I take to be tautologous – whatever water is, “wettest” is the “mostest” of that). You’re mapping those scalars onto qualitative measures, though, and that’s a problem. If “goodness” is a relative, qualitative construct, then the analofy fails, and fails badly. And you need to embrace this unwarranted foundation of Aristotle to make the analogy work – is “goodness” a scalar, with a logical maximum? It could be, I guess, but there’s perfectly no justiifcation for saying that must be the case, so far as I can see. Aquinas depends on intuition here, what “everybody knows” – except that not everybody knows it. And as the centuries progress, and we learn more and more, fewer and fewer know it. What Aquinas thought to be a timeless, enduring intuition, a solid epistemic foundation, wasn’t, and that intuition now just seems quaint in light of what’s transpired since.

-TS
 
Touchstone

I realize this is a Catholic forum, but I am surprised at the level of emotional reaction to criticism of Aquinas, here, in the “Philosophy” section. It’s fine to have Aquinas as a philosophical hero or what not, but when it prevents you from fair assessment of criticism, it’s self-defeating, isn’t it?

I for one have not been a champion of the fourth argument for various reasons. Yes, Aquinas is a philosophical hero … always keeping in mind that his analogies to nature are sometimes scientifically unwarranted. Einstein is no less a hero for his own scientific (or mathematical) flubs, and should be spoken of still without mocking.

Nobody’s reasoning is perfect. I’m sure once or twice you’ve had to correct yourself? I’d still respect you when you’re wrong. I don’t respect Dawkins. He has invited disrespect in the manner of his attack on Aquinas and on Christians in general.
 
Touchstone

The Big Bang does not, and never has had any cause attributed to it. It’s the “First Effect”, if we must cast this in 13th century scholastic terms. As I said, it’s a boon for theism that something like the Steady State hypothesis was falsified in favor of the Big Bang, but here in this paragraph, you’ve demonstrated the “whipsaw” effect of Aquinas-style indulgence in intution-without-warrant.* Nowhere does science offer, or even contemplate offering a cause for the Big Bang; that’s metaphysics at t<=0, and the closest any scientist may come is theoretical conjecture, or even weaker, theology.***

Ah, yes, but that is the problem for science, isn’t it? The final confrontation with something it cannot, and never will, understand. God has managed, once again, to confound the arrogance of men.The scientist who is a whole man, and not merely a scientist, the scientist who has as powerful an imagination as an intellect, will turn to God, as many have.
 
What Aquinas thought to be a timeless, enduring intuition, a solid epistemic foundation, wasn’t, and that intuition now just seems quaint in light of what’s transpired since.
The question is of the gradations of goodness in the nature of being. You apparently only wield an epistemic hammer and are desperately seeking an epistemic nail, but there isn’t one for you to hit. There argument explicitly disproves the one and only argument for atheism as I had posted earlier:
Ironically, the only proof for atheism is the problem of evil, which necessarily admits to gradations of goodness. Gradations of goodness implies the existence of a greatest good (aka God.)
It’s not surprising that you are attempting to mis-characterize the argument by presenting it as something other than what it is. It obliterates the one and only proof for atheism.
 
The question is of the gradations of goodness in the nature of being. You apparently only wield an epistemic hammer and are desperately seeking an epistemic nail, but there isn’t one for you to hit. There argument explicitly disproves the one and only argument for atheism as I had posted earlier:
Ironically, the only proof for atheism is the problem of evil, which necessarily admits to gradations of goodness. Gradations of goodness implies the existence of a greatest good (aka God.)
It’s not surprising that you are attempting to mis-characterize the argument by presenting it as something other than what it is. It obliterates the one and only proof for atheism.
But how does this argument by itself resolve the question of why God allowed evil-the privation of good-to occur to begin with?
 
It obliterates the one and only proof for atheism.

I would say there is not even one proof for atheism, though this is about the best shot atheists can think to take. Bertrand Russell, for example, in “Why I Am Not a Christian,” argues that if he were God he could have done better than to create Hitlers and Mussolinis (interesting that he doesn’t mention Stalins!) Of course the answer is to say that God could have done so by destroying free will. But then Russell didn’t believe in free will either.

There is something of a disconnect in this discussion.

Aquinas’ fourth proof has to be viewed in two ways: first, as a proof to those who lived in his own time. For many that would have been an adequate proof and difficult to refute, especially given the analogy he used. Moreover, if you are already a Christian, it is much easier to follow his train of reasoning and be satisfied with it.

Second, we no longer can be held to an analogy that now seems to us decidedly fraught with error, as I pointed out in an earlier post and as Touchstone has also mentioned. A modern day atheist (especially with a scientific bent) is not going to buy the fourth proof at all; and, as Touchstone has already suggested, will regard it as the least impressive of the five.

It ought to be possible to reduce any argument to either the inductive or deductive method. I cannot do either with the fourth argument. I believe Aquinas tried the deductive method (the only one available), but his syllogism is not complete, and therefore invalid.

I guess I’ve said all this before. Sorry … it’s a hazard of old age. Will not say it again.
 
Second, we no longer can be held to an analogy that now seems to us decidedly fraught with error, as I pointed out in an earlier post and as Touchstone has also mentioned. A modern day atheist (especially with a scientific bent) is not going to buy the fourth proof at all; and, as Touchstone has already suggested, will regard it as the least impressive of the five.*

Exactly how does the analogy make the argument fraught with error?

jd
 
The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But “more” and “less” are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

Exactly how does the analogy make the argument fraught with error?

I said the analogy is fraught with error, but I think the argument therefore falls if it depends on the analogy … which it seems to.

Well, if you are going to make a fair analogy (even allowing that no analogy is perfect) you should not open yourself to the obvious complaint that there are many exceptions to the analogy. For example, can I not create warmth by rubbing my hands together, or by using a glass prism to catch the sun’s rays on a sheet of paper and setting it on fire, or by running as fast as I can? Fire is not the cause of all that is hot, though it may be the cause of many things that are hot. The atheist then has an out. If there is not necessarily a single maximum for hot things, why does there have to be a single maximum for all beings?

And this is the atheist argument: that, employing the scientific method (the only methodology allowed by most atheists) there is no detectable maximum for the genus of all beings … unless it be found in the Big Bang. The atheist will not find it there, even if the Christian will.
 
And this is the atheist argument: that, employing the scientific method (the only methodology allowed by most atheists) there is no detectable maximum for the genus of all beings … unless it be found in the Big Bang. The atheist will not find it there, even if the Christian will.

Clarifying my answer:

The atheist will not find the maximum (God) there, even if the Christian will.
 
The question is of the gradations of goodness in the nature of being. You apparently only wield an epistemic hammer and are desperately seeking an epistemic nail, but there isn’t one for you to hit. There argument explicitly disproves the one and only argument for atheism as I had posted earlier:Ironically, the only proof for atheism is the problem of evil, which necessarily admits to gradations of goodness. Gradations of goodness implies the existence of a greatest good (aka God.)
It’s not surprising that you are attempting to mis-characterize the argument by presenting it as something other than what it is. It obliterates the one and only proof for atheism.
The problem of evil is in no way a proof for atheism, and there is no possible proof for a universal, metaphysical negative. That’s a confused concept – a ‘proof’ for atheism. The problem of evil doesn’t help atheism, except as a kind of defeater for theism. But even then, it’s only problematic for some forms of theism (namely the Abrahamic renderings of God); it’s not hard to imagine a Shiva-like god for whom what we call evil is a kind of cosmic good, making an associated theodicy neat and simple.

As for gradations of goodness implying a greatest good, Aquinas’ own choice of “heat” as an example is a good refutation of that idea. We might affirm that something, somewhere is the “hottest” thing (and scientifically, this is a no-brainer – the ultra-dense, insanely hot plasma of our universe when it was just a few pico-seconds old wins the prize there… so hot that massive cooling was needed before phase transitions took place that even enabled basic elements to form), but only in a de facto sense. That thing, whatever it is just the ‘most hot’ by virtue of comparison with everything else, and would still have the potential to be hotter still.

I think it’s clear if you read Aquinas that he is not talking about *de facto *maxima, but a neo-Platonic ideal. Aquinas thought heat implied a maximal heat, as a logical maximum, and made the mistake you are making above, that gradations necessarily imply an ideal maxiumum. They don’t and that idea that it “implies” such is erroneous. Maybe it might “suggest” such in an informal way, but that’s all. Informal suggestions are a dime a dozen.

-TS
 
Touchstone

*I think it’s clear if you read Aquinas that he is not talking about de facto maxima, but a neo-Platonic ideal. *

Yes, Aquinas is more a fusion of Aristotle and Plato (or neo-Platonism) than many scholars will admit.
 
As for gradations of goodness implying a greatest good, Aquinas’ own choice of “heat” as an example is a good refutation of that idea.
No, it’s not even relevant. You’re wrong no matter how you try to spin the argument.
 
I said earlier:

And this is the atheist argument: that, employing the scientific method (the only methodology allowed by most atheists) there is no detectable maximum for the genus of all beings … unless it be found in the Big Bang. The atheist will not find the maximum (God) there, even if the Christian will.

Hmm. Just now reading a book, Einstein and Religion, and came across this quote from Stephen Hawking: “It would be perfectly consistent with all we know to say that there was a Being who was responsible for the laws of physics. However, I think it could be misleading to call such a Being ‘God,’ because this term is normally understood to have personal connotations which are not presented in the laws of physics.”

Wouldn’t the Being responsible for the laws of physics at least be said to have enough intellect to have created the math by which the universe runs? And if the Being has Intellect, isn’t that an element of personality? Or is the Being to be thought of only as the great unprogrammed Computer in the Sky?

At any rate, I think the fourth argument by Aquinas has again the same limitation by its own language. It offers us a Being that causes all other beings, but no atheist has to call that Being ‘God.’ And if he does call it ‘God,’ as Einstein did, he still doesn’t have to think of a personal God because there is no evidence in science of personality beyond Reason.

In the end, there is no argument offered by Aquinas to prove a personal God. He has taken Reason as far as it will go, just as science will take it as far as it will go … and no farther. This is certainly consistent with Aquinas’ view that to understand God more fully without the aid of Reason, we must turn to Revelation.
 
But isn’t this all we’d ask of the argument anyway? And wouldn’t an atheist still generally deny even this much?

Yes and yes. But he’s still engaged in an article of faith, rather than proof.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top