The free will of Adam and Eve

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Porknpie said:
Fatboys,

There are a lot of bible verses to support the Word of God through tradition, among them…

1 Corinthians 11:2
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.*

The King James Bible that you use was canonized by the Catholic Church in ~397 AD based on Tradition, minus a printing company taking 7 books out some 1800 years later. Interesting though that the Church that you believe was in a Great Apostasy by 325 AD canonized the books in your bible that you use in 397 AD. You trust this Apostasized Catholic Church in this regards…to have selected 73 writings out of near 300 or so +/- that existed at the time. But you don’t trust the same church to interpret the books that it canonized. :confused:
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There are many traditions that are not found in the bible.
 
Fatboys said:
Since you believe the canon to be close, where else would it come from. If there were more revelations from God, they would be contained in the bible right? So where does more religious truth come from or are you going to keep me guessing?
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All revelation has been fulfilled in Christ.

There is no further revelation, Fatboys.
 
Fatboys said:
There are many traditions that are not found in the bible.
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Indeed. Sacred Tradition (which is different, of course, from “tradition” or customs), exists to complement the Sacred Scriptures.
 
Fatboys said:
I know that this is the way you see it, but lets say that God gave his children one law and then told them not to live it? Can you think of a law in the Bible where God changed his mind?
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Sure. God originally said that you could divorce. (See the law of Moses.)

Then Jesus said: if you divorce and re-marry, you commit adultery.
 
Fatboys said:
Since you believe the canon to be close, where else would it come from. If there were more revelations from God, they would be contained in the bible right? So where does more religious truth come from or are you going to keep me guessing?
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From Jesus’ church, the catholic church, guided by God into all thruth (John 16:13). Jesus’ church codified the bible, defined doctrines such as the Trinity and Theotokos etc. that were challenged by many early on.

Do you believe that most people had access to the codified holy bible for the first 1400 years of Christianity? Or, did those folks, before the printing press, learn from Jesus’ church?
 
Fatboys said:
Then I pose this question. Since you believe that God has all power and knowledge, could God have created a being that by their own free will obeyed him? Or did God have the knowledge to know that Adam was, with his free will going to disobey? Or when Adam disobeyed and his intent was to have obedient creations, then why did God allow mankind to continue? Surely a God who is all powerful and knowing and whose influence is felt everywhere could create the world of his intent?
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Making you do something is not obedience. You misunderstand the nature of obedience and God.

I took my dog to obedience school. When I call, he comes to me. Not because he has to, not because I made him do it, not because he couldn’t continue to look for birds if he chose, but because he wants to - he loves me.

Your argument boils down to: “God created the world differently than I would have.” If your explanation of the world doesn’t fit the world you see around you, or what you know to be true about God and yourself, then change your explantation.
 
JHow said:
Making you do something is not obedience. You misunderstand the nature of obedience and God.

I took my dog to obedience school. When I call, he comes to me. Not because he has to, not because I made him do it, not because he couldn’t continue to look for birds if he chose, but because he wants to - he loves me.

Your argument boils down to: “God created the world differently than I would have.” If your explanation of the world doesn’t fit the world you see around you, or what you know to be true about God and yourself, then change your explantation.
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So what you are saying is that God could not create a being with free will, that would choose the right every time? Not force choice, but a being that would choose freely right?
 
JHow said:
Making you do something is not obedience. You misunderstand the nature of obedience and God.

I took my dog to obedience school. When I call, he comes to me. Not because he has to, not because I made him do it, not because he couldn’t continue to look for birds if he chose, but because he wants to - he loves me.

Your argument boils down to: “God created the world differently than I would have.” If your explanation of the world doesn’t fit the world you see around you, or what you know to be true about God and yourself, then change your explantation.
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No, my point is that if God wanted to, he could have. From what I gather, many believe that when God created this world, it was to be a paradise for man. That Adam and Eve were to be the first parents of this perfect world. And then they screwed it up
 
Fatboys said:
So what you are saying is that God could not create a being with free will, that would choose the right every time? Not force choice, but a being that would choose freely right?
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No one is saying that.

Any Catholic understands that He did this with Mary.
 
PRmerger said:
God wanted to give Adam free will so that Adam could freely choose God.

Adam, unfortunately, chose Adam.
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What was God’s intention for Adam? Did he want him to not transgress? Did God want the world to remain as he created it in a non fallen state?
 
PRmerger said:
Yes, God never wills sin, Fatboys.
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This is how I look at it. If God’s intent was to have a perfect world, then God would have created Adam perfect, with perfect will, that would obey perfectly. It has been said here that God knew Adam was going to disobey, and yet continued to create Adam. Why? You said that he created Mary perfect.

I believe that God intended Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit. Since God is perfect this is a perfect plan for Adam and the resulting posterity to have mortality.
 
The way you see it, seems like you expect God should have forced us to be obedient and not have free will.

God wants us all to love him of our own free will. Adam chose to disobey. But, through Jesus we have the chance to choose to repent and return to God again through our free will. God never wanted mankind to be banished from the Garden.

The example of Mary, I’ve read somewhere, is the perfect example of our free will. That is, she used her free will to say “yes” to God, and in doing so showed that she loved God and submitted to his will. “I am the Lord’s servant,’ Mary answered. 'May it be to me as you have said.”
 
Fatboys said:
This is how I look at it. If God’s intent was to have a perfect world, then God would have created Adam perfect, with perfect will, that would obey perfectly.
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No, Fatboys. You are proclaiming something as nonsensical as “Why couldn’t god make a married bachelor? Or a square circle? Or a 4-some Trinity?”

Making someone have perfect will who *couldn’t *disobey is nonsensical.

Adam and Eve were, like Mary, created without sin.

They all had free will.

One person chose to never sin.
The other folks chose the other path.
 
Fatboys said:
So what you are saying is that God could not create a being with free will, that would choose the right every time? Not force choice, but a being that would choose freely right?
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God can do anything; people of course cannot e.g. answering questions that only God has the answer to…🤷.
 
PRmerger said:
No, Fatboys. You are proclaiming something as nonsensical as “Why couldn’t god make a married bachelor? Or a square circle? Or a 4-some Trinity?”

Making someone have perfect will who *couldn’t *disobey is nonsensical.

Adam and Eve were, like Mary, created without sin.

They all had free will.

One person chose to never sin.
The other folks chose the other path.
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Before he created Adam and Eve he knew they were going to disobey. So if his intent was different than what he knew Adam and Eve would do, then why create them? Why not start over with an Adam that would by his own free will choose not to disobey? Seems simple to me
 
Fatboys said:
Before he created Adam and Eve he knew they were going to disobey. So if his intent was different than what he knew Adam and Eve would do, then why create them? Why not start over with an Adam that would by his own free will choose not to disobey? Seems simple to me
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You need to understand the Eternal Now, Fatboys. There is no “before” and “after” with God. He can’t come to know something is “going to” happen, because it’s already happened in His Omniscience.
 
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