The Friend Zone

[JimG]

Why men and women can not be friends.

St. Francis de Sales warned against friendships with the opposite sex, but I am wondering whether the views expressed in this article are in accord with people’s experiences.

No, men and women cannot be friends.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

This is misogynistic drivel, coming from someone who sounds bitter.

If a guy likes a girl and she doesn’t like him back, there is no reason why he can’t find another girl and remain friends with the girl he asked out, unless he personally has no interest in staying friends. If a guy entertains a longing for the girl after she has stated that she sees him as a friend, that is HIS problem. The girl always only saw him as a friend. This article is written as if it’s the woman’s fault that she “led him on” by being simply friendly.

It is unhealthy to isolate yourself from an entire sex. I work in a industry that is male-dominated. I am perfectly capable of being friends with men and they are perfectly capable of being friends with me.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes there can be some truth to this.

But I would not paint it so strongly.

*It is certainly possible for men and women to be (simply) friends *- but yes one must take into account the differences in their nature as well as the natural attraction that may occur.

 

[PhiloMed]

This topic seems to get batted around every few months.

The article begins with the story of a young man who has romantic feelings for a young lady who does not feel the same way about him.

It should stop there. This is one specific type of situation in which it might be preferable for the young man to not be in the “friend zone” with this young lady. This does not necessarily apply to every single situation where two people of the opposite sex become friends.

It also defines friendship in a peculiar way: “friends are those who see the same truth, who face the same object before them” and then goes on to say that because men and women relate to the world differently they cannot possibly be friends.

This seems contradictory. I work with several men whom I consider to be a friend. There may be work-related or unrelated things that we have in common and “see the same truth” in.

Most of my friends (both male and female) are people I met during work or school. Most of my female friends come from my high school days. My male friends come from post college and beyond. Also, the way I related to people was different in high school than as an adult.

This conversation about “can men and women be friends” always seemed silly to me. Obviously, they are! It’s like asking if the earth can be round or if water can be wet.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’d say that those of us who maintain friendships with members of the opposite sex have to be realistic.

If you have a friend, your sex or not, who consumes a huge amount of your time, of course that is going to give you less time for an actual courtship. That’s as true of a obsessions with hobby shopping or ESPN as it is a very close friendship, though. When it comes to impinging on the attentions a spouse ought to be getting, hobbies or even volunteer work probably get a pass when an opposite-sex friend never would!

If you have a serious physical attraction to someone who doesn’t or cannot return the interest, you have a problem. The solution is to either decide that you’re going to work your way out of the friend zone or else to dial it back to something more distant, more like a pleasant acquaintance-ship. Spending lots of time and investing emotional capital in a relationship that cannot go where you wish it could is a recipe for disaster. Do not do it. If a marriage to someone else is the impinging factor, REALLY dial it back. Dial it back as much as you think you need to, then dial it back about five notches past that. Take the Sixth Commandment very seriously, including Our Lord’s admonition to read the Sixth Commandment strictly rather than loosely. (Matt. 5:27-30)

Yes, you can have friends of the opposite sex who are just friends. Sometimes, the guy who seems like a brother to you really does feel you seem like a sister to him: that is, the two of you value the friendship but consider a sexual interest something between preposterous and icky. Personal chemistry works against impurity sometimes, too, not just in favor of it. In this case, being realistic involves realizing that transient sexual urges can rush in when you least expect them. These have the power of flood water: even though it looks as if it is only shin-deep, it is very powerful. Expect these feelings when you least expect them, and do not underestimate their power. (If you have been drinking or going through a very emotional time–even a death!!–multiply that by ten or even a hundred.)

Keep yourself out of near occasions of really foolish sin by not spending lots of time alone with someone of the opposite sex not your spouse or family, maintaining what amounts to chaperoning at all times–being in public or where someone might walk in at any time or with third parties present–ESPECIALLY if there will be alcohol involved. Do this with ALL persons of the opposite sex. As it turns out, people are rarely offended at the idea that they could conceivably raise a sexual thought in someone else’s head. “No, I don’t see you that way, but you are not my grandfather. I don’t feel chemistry with you, but someone like me could easily be attracted to someone like you. You’re not chopped liver, you know! People have affairs with someone who was like a brother to them until the day they fell, and it happens more often than you think.”

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Flicking through some of the other articles on the website, it is promoting a version of masculinity in some articles that is not healthy.

In this article, I found this para particularly annoying:

In today’s world where women make up the majority of the workplace and schools, many men have resigned themselves to such friendships. While a few social justice warriors hail this as a great triumph for feminism and the equality of the sexes, what results is a sense of isolation and loss of self-respect. Men and women carry on something that is not natural, friendship with the opposite sex, and frequently deny something that is natural, friendship with the same sex as well as a conjugal relationship.

Women make up the majority of the workplace and schools? How? Are not 50% of people men? So it implies men are somehow isolated because women are allowed to go to school and work? This is a bad thing? I don’t think it’s just SJWs that think that educated, working women are a good thing. Also stating that a friendship between the opposite sex is “unnatural” is unfounded. Friendship is natural. One is more likely to find kinship with the same sex, but last time I checked men and women’s personalities are not defined entirely by gender. And friendship with the opposite sex almost never, in my experience, prevents friendship with the same sex or prevents dating. I have seen dating prevent friendships with the same sex far more often than anything else.

I’m also not entirely sure what the context of the caption under the rugby pic is about, so I might be misinterpreting it, but it’s coming off as anti-intellectualism and machoism:

Instead of thinking of a bunch of dandies drinking wine and talking about love, imagine a scrum of burly men talking about friendship and the Symposium becomes a much more tolerable read.

If you can’t respect Plato’s writing as it stands, you have issues. Maybe it was a joke though, I can’t tell with this article.

 

[pianistclare]

I think we Christians are supposed to befriend everyone, no matter the gender.

 

[styrgwillidar]

This is misogynistic drivel, coming from someone who sounds bitter.

If a guy likes a girl and she doesn’t like him back, there is no reason why he can’t find another girl and remain friends with the girl he asked out, unless he personally has no interest in staying friends. If a guy entertains a longing for the girl after she has stated that she sees him as a friend, that is HIS problem. The girl always only saw him as a friend. This article is written as if it’s the woman’s fault that she “led him on” by being simply friendly.

It is unhealthy to isolate yourself from an entire sex. I work in a industry that is male-dominated. I am perfectly capable of being friends with men and they are perfectly capable of being friends with me.

I just detest the phrase ‘friend zone’ and agree with you.

It’s really simple- if you want to have more of a relationship than someone else is willing/wants to have you have a decision to make- have the relationship that’s amenable to both of you or don’t. Move on based on what can be, not in hopes of what could be.

These folks placing themselves in some ‘zone’ that’s akin to stalking on the hopes of something more developing is just flat out unhealthy. I thought that was what dating was all about? Getting to know various folks to figure out what you’re compatible with and what you’re not for longer term relationships. If you’re at that stage that you want to meet ‘the one’, it’s unhealthy wasting time on someone who’s clearly decided they’re not ‘your one’ in the hopes they’ll change their mind. They were respectful of you enough to be honest with you and not waste your time. If you continue being in their life and that time is affecting your ability to find ‘the one’, you’ve put yourself in a ‘friend zone’ and it was completely your own decision, no one else’s.

 

[pianistclare]

This topic seems to get batted around every few months.

The article begins with the story of a young man who has romantic feelings for a young lady who does not feel the same way about him.

It should stop there. This is one specific type of situation in which it might be preferable for the young man to not be in the “friend zone” with this young lady. This does not necessarily apply to every single situation where two people of the opposite sex become friends.

It also defines friendship in a peculiar way: “friends are those who see the same truth, who face the same object before them” and then goes on to say that because men and women relate to the world differently they cannot possibly be friends.

This seems contradictory. I work with several men whom I consider to be a friend. There may be work-related or unrelated things that we have in common and “see the same truth” in.

Most of my friends (both male and female) are people I met during work or school. Most of my female friends come from my high school days. My male friends come from post college and beyond. Also, the way I related to people was different in high school than as an adult.

This conversation about “can men and women be friends” always seemed silly to me. Obviously, they are! It’s like asking if the earth can be round or if water can be wet.

Well stated. The question might better be:
Can people of either sex tolerate being rejected for friendship by someone of the opposite sex. That answer would often be “no”.

 

[angell1]

Why men and women can not be friends.

St. Francis de Sales warned against friendships with the opposite sex, but I am wondering whether the views expressed in this article are in accord with people’s experiences.

No, men and women cannot be friends.

there are also a pile of letters from st. francis de Sales advising a married woman on how to conduct her friendships with the opposite sex, so…

it actually is possible for men and women to just see themselves as brother and sister, believe it or not. it’s today’s society that tried to sexualize everything.

yes, there are boundaries, just as their are with same-sex friendships. there are ctertain situations where two particular may need to keep a distance, if it as an occasion of sin for them. but this does not equate to men and women can’t be friends period.

Jesus had female friends. and also the church certainly does not teach such a thing

 

[pianistclare]

there are also a pile of letters from st. francis de Sales advising a married woman on how to conduct her friendships with the opposite sex, so…

it actually is possible for men and women to just see themselves as brother and sister, believe it or not. it’s today’s society that tried to sexualize everything.

yes, there are boundaries, just as their are with same-sex friendships. there are ctertain situations where two particular may need to keep a distance, if it as an occasion of sin for them. but this does not equate to men and women can’t be friends period.

Jesus had female friends. and also the church certainly does not teach such a thing

bravo, angel!

 

[EasterJoy]

I just detest the phrase ‘friend zone’ and agree with you.

It’s really simple- if you want to have more of a relationship than someone else is willing/wants to have you have a decision to make- have the relationship that’s amenable to both of you or don’t. Move on based on what can be, not in hopes of what could be.

These folks placing themselves in some ‘zone’ that’s akin to stalking on the hopes of something more developing is just flat out unhealthy. I thought that was what dating was all about? Getting to know various folks to figure out what you’re compatible with and what you’re not for longer term relationships. If you’re at that stage that you want to meet ‘the one’, it’s unhealthy wasting time on someone who’s clearly decided they’re not ‘your one’ in the hopes they’ll change their mind. They were respectful of you enough to be honest with you and not waste your time. If you continue being in their life and that time is affecting your ability to find ‘the one’, you’ve put yourself in a ‘friend zone’ and it was completely your own decision, no one else’s.

“Friend zone” is a real thing, in a bad way.

By this, I mean there are women who use their physical attractiveness to get favors out of male “just friends” and men who use their physical charms to get favors out of female “just friends” that they have no romantic interest in. They have learned that attractive people who play their cards right can get favors that less-attractive people don’t get, and they cultivate friendships with members of the opposite sex who are willing to be taken advantage of if they’re allowed to just be somewhere in the social orbit of someone they find extremely attractive. It’s a manipulative way to treat others, but some people out there do it. (Some are even openly proud of being able to do it! )

 

[styrgwillidar]

“Friend zone” is a real thing, in a bad way.

By this, I mean there are women who use their physical attractiveness to get favors out of male “just friends” and men who use their physical charms to get favors out of female “just friends” that they have no romantic interest in. They have learned that attractive people who play their cards right can get favors that less-attractive people don’t get, and they cultivate friendships with members of the opposite sex who are willing to be taken advantage of if they’re allowed to just be somewhere in the social orbit of someone they find extremely attractive. It’s a manipulative way to treat others, but some people out there do it. (Some are even openly proud of being able to do it! )

You make a good point. I had not considered it from that aspect.

But, it reminds me of the thread about being a ‘nice guy’. One allows oneself to be manipulated or goes along with it. If the attractive person is doing it deliberately (vice having simply set boundaries about the extent of friendship) shame on them. But the person being manipulated needs to wake up and realize what’s going and set their boundaries as well. Instead of whining about being ‘in the friend zone’, stop choosing to be there. Move on to someone else who is more compatible. Or, decide you like being friends and maintain an equitable vice manipulative friendship.

 

[on_the_hill]

Yeah, that part about the majority of people in the workplace and schools being women is–it’s simply wrong. So wrong that it kind of calls into question everything else in the article, which is fairly bogus to begin with.

Do you know who gets “friend-zoned?” Guys who are romantically interested in a woman who doesn’t have the same feelings as he does–and…AND (this is the important part) tries to cling to her as if following her around like a lost puppy will cause her to change her feelings about him.

There is so much talk about masculine roles, how men have become “feminized,” how men don’t have manly role models, etc., etc., etc. but then there’s talk about how women don’t like “nice” guys. So which is it, fellas? Are you going to grow a backbone, salvage your pride and move on with confidence? Or are you going to pine away over some girl who told you she’s not interested and instead found a guy she does want?

Furthermore, the article is all over the place. It sets up a false equivalency between romantic rejection and friendship. It assumes that men and women cannot be friends because the phenomenon of “friend-zoning” exists. Really?

Some of, if not most of, my closest friendships over my life have been with girls/women. I don’t know–maybe I friend-zoned them and didn’t realize it.

 

[dangerousdyls]

there are also a pile of letters from st. francis de Sales advising a married woman on how to conduct her friendships with the opposite sex, so…

it actually is possible for men and women to just see themselves as brother and sister, believe it or not. it’s today’s society that tried to sexualize everything.

yes, there are boundaries, just as their are with same-sex friendships. there are ctertain situations where two particular may need to keep a distance, if it as an occasion of sin for them. but this does not equate to men and women can’t be friends period.

Jesus had female friends. and also the church certainly does not teach such a thing

I think this is well said.

I have women I consider friends, but we keep boundaries. More strict boundaries than that of same-sex friends. I think one should be wary of spending and planning much one-on-one time with someone of the opposite sex that they don’t intend to see about marriage. But to me that doesn’t mean you’re not friends.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Why men and women can not be friends.

St. Francis de Sales warned against friendships with the opposite sex, but I am wondering whether the views expressed in this article are in accord with people’s experiences.

No, men and women cannot be friends.

Have you considered stepping away from this kind of material, even if only temporarily? It might do you some good.

You have been a member since 2004, and since then, you’ve consistently posted threads and articles about the terrible state of gender relations, masculinity, and marriage. A couple weeks ago I was looking at a VERY old thread in which you had declared modern marriage a failure and thought it necessary to go back to arranged marriages. 12 years of your life has gone to these negative and sometimes hateful musings that prey upon the notion that you can’t have a good life because the whole world is against it. Instead of focusing on finding and sharing these opinion pieces that validate your own life, why not take concrete steps to change things for yourself?

These things you post are not as widespread and inescapable as you seem to think. I have to wonder if you’re extrapolating your experiences to the entire population of the West. Clearly, men and women can be friends, even if it is a bit more complicated. Clearly, happy, lifelong marriages form every day. And clearly, there are still plenty of good, strong men who work hard and have successful lives (yes, even straight, white, Christian men).

If you feel that your own masculinity has failed to develop in a healthy way, work on that. Take a fighting course, join a men’s club, volunteer as a Big Brother. If you feel like you haven’t built healthy relationships with women, set your mind to that. If it’s both, develop your masculinity so you can better form a romantic relationship.

 

[Rbaker]

there are also a pile of letters from st. francis de Sales advising a married woman on how to conduct her friendships with the opposite sex, so…

it actually is possible for men and women to just see themselves as brother and sister, believe it or not. it’s today’s society that tried to sexualize everything.

yes, there are boundaries, just as their are with same-sex friendships. there are ctertain situations where two particular may need to keep a distance, if it as an occasion of sin for them. but this does not equate to men and women can’t be friends period.

Jesus had female friends. and also the church certainly does not teach such a thing

And we have a winner!

Sometimes things are so obvious, that we miss them

 

[JimG]

Amazingly enough, this article from Scientific American takes a somewhat similar view:

“The results suggest large gender differences in how men and women experience opposite-sex friendships. Men were much more attracted to their female friends than vice versa. Men were also more likely than women to think that their opposite-sex friends were attracted to them—a clearly misguided belief. In fact, men’s estimates of how attractive they were to their female friends had virtually nothing to do with how these women actually felt, and almost everything to do with how the men themselves felt—basically, males assumed that any romantic attraction they experienced was mutual, and were blind to the actual level of romantic interest felt by their female friends.

Women, too, were blind to the mindset of their opposite-sex friends; because females generally were not attracted to their male friends, they assumed that this lack of attraction was mutual.”

 

[starshiptrooper]

This article is ridiculous. It sounds like by an unassertive guy with a case of onenitis. The author should learn to cut his losses and move on. There are 3 billion odd people of the other sex, the odds are pretty good that attraction will be mutual between the author and a few other people.

I engaged in competition swing dance for awhile. My partner and I had no romantic interest in each other. We did better than couples who were dealing with relationship drama. So yes, opposite sex friendships can work. They can help too. Susie may not be interested but through her, you meet Mary who is.

Do you know who gets “friend-zoned?” Guys who are romantically interested in a woman who doesn’t have the same feelings as he does–and…AND (this is the important part) tries to cling to her as if following her around like a lost puppy will cause her to change her feelings about him.

While that is the most common instance of the “friend zone” I have to say based on personal experience that the roles can be reversed.

There is so much talk about masculine roles, how men have become “feminized,” how men don’t have manly role models, etc., etc., etc. but then there’s talk about how women don’t like “nice” guys. So which is it, fellas? Are you going to grow a backbone, salvage your pride and move on with confidence? Or are you going to pine away over some girl who told you she’s not interested and instead found a guy she does want?

 

[twf]

Keep yourself out of near occasions of really foolish sin by not spending lots of time alone with someone of the opposite sex not your spouse or family, maintaining what amounts to chaperoning at all times–being in public or where someone might walk in at any time or with third parties present–ESPECIALLY if there will be alcohol involved. Do this with ALL persons of the opposite sex. As it turns out, people are rarely offended at the idea that they could conceivably raise a sexual thought in someone else’s head. “No, I don’t see you that way, but you are not my grandfather. I don’t feel chemistry with you, but someone like me could easily be attracted to someone like you. You’re not chopped liver, you know! People have affairs with someone who was like a brother to them until the day they fell, and it happens more often than you think.”

Why, in these discussions, is it always assumed that there WILL be near occasion of sin if a man and a woman spend time together one on one? Certainly there can be… but I think it is the height of insanity to assume (as many seem to on this forum) that ANY man will be sexually drawn to ANY woman and vice versa. As a man, there are millions upon millions of women whom I could never ever be remotely aroused by under any circumstances…that is just objective reality. I am a 30 year old married man. There are women in their 50s and 60s who I would consider “friends”. Yet never in a million years under any circumstances could I ever be in an occasion of sin with these mature ladies who are older than my mother. I have friends of all ages and both genders. One of my closest friends is an 85 year old man - and no he is not a grandfather figure for me, he is a friend. It wouldn’t really be that drastically different if he were an 85 year old woman.
I have several women friends who are around my same age with whom nothing could ever happen romantically - there’s simply no interest there. These are women I’ve known for a decade or longer. These are women my wife is also friends with and with whom we can spend time with together or individually. I know from experience that platonic friendships between men and women are very possible.
You just need to know yourself, the friend, and the context. While I would not hesitate to spend time with my established women friends whom I have known for years, and whom my wife knows, there are other women in my life whom I would never spend time with one on one - women who I realize I would perhaps be interested in if I were single… its not rocket science… you just need to know yourself and the other person.