The fruit of Vatican II

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This is very good news, but I’d say it’s more directly the fruit of Anglicanorum Coetibus. 🙂
 
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I see it a little differently. They’ve always had the opportunity to (re)enter the Church since Henry VIII. Maybe not as bishops or priests but nevertheless they had the opportunity to come into the Church. Like Blair did, for example. However, if the politics of all this is meant to serve as an example to others, then I hope it works out.
 
I see it a little differently. They’ve always had the opportunity to (re)enter the Church since Henry VIII. Maybe not as bishops or priests but nevertheless they had the opportunity to come into the Church. Like Blair did, for example. Would they even be considering joining the Catholic faith (or any other faith, for that matter) had not all these drastic anomalies within their ranks taken place? That certainly can’t be good for any religion or organization.

That said, if the politics of all this is meant to serve as an example to others, then I hope it works out.
 
laszlo said:
Which was the result of 30+ years of discussion and deliberation
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Since the Anglican question actually long predates Vatican II, I cannot consider this event to be anything directly related to that Council.
 
I’m so happy for these Anglicans who will be coming over to Rome.

In reading over the linked article, I found the last paragraph to be interesting. Fr. David Elliot, parish priest in Reading, said that…“My own future I think does lie in the Roman Catholic Church but I can’t say when that will be. Obviously I have got to weigh up my responsibilities to the congregation.”

It must be a very difficult decision for some of the Anglican priests, because it’s not only themselves which they have to consider in converting, but those of their congregations as well. If his whole parish decided to convert, then maybe it wouldn’t be a problem. Perhaps he’s worried about those who will remain with the CoE if he and some of the congregation converted, and who their new CoE priest would be…perhaps a liberal one.
 
I am thanking God for this great grace and I do remain hopeful. However, I remember in 1997 I went on retreat at a well known abbey in England and there was a large group of former Anglicans there finishing their retreat the day I arrived. I was walking the grounds looking at some of the buildings and beautiful architecture when I was suddenly met by the group. We were having a very nice chat and I had asked one gentleman what brought him to the Church and he said that they had all converted because they didn’t accept women’s ordination. Then he went on to say how horribly they had all been treated by former Anglican parishioners after their conversions and gave a number of examples.

I said something like, “Wow…you have a lot to offer up or that is a lot to unite with Our Lord,” or something like that and he blew up at me. He got very nasty and started saying, “See…I don’t believe that, etc, etc…” And I said that uniting our suffering with Christ and bearing the crosses that come our way was a fundamental teaching of the Church. To which he replied, “So you just blindly swallow whatever Rome tells you?” They all got rather hostile and it was clear they didn’t respect the teaching authority of the Church, were not in line with Church teaching and certainly did not have very clear understanding of the faith.

Then there is Tony Blair, who has decided he has the moral authority to tell the Holy Father and bishops that their moral teachings are wrong. One example of several I have read about since his “conversion” can be read here: timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6055696.ece
I also find it hard to believe his sincerity since he was one of the most anti-life, pro-homosexual agenda PMs. His sin was public, does that not require a public repentance before being accepted into the Church or at the very least some explanation?

So, what is really going on here? Is this just a “come one come all to the greatest circus on Earth” kind of spectacle?
 
HCC said:
So, what is really going on here? Is this just a “come one come all to the greatest circus on Earth” kind of spectacle?
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In Central Europe in the 16th Century there live people following the Byzantine liturgy and habits (married priest, their own hierarchy, receiving the Eucharist as babies under both species etc).

Due to the political circumstance they had to face weather submit themselves to the Russians who wanted strict control and taxation, or make an agreement with Rome and to belong to the less controlling Hapsburg rule.

Rome was lenient, and required them only to accept the Filioque and the doctrine of Purgatory. They signed but some hot headed leaders argued against the Roman control, and they denied bot principles. Some decades later the Czars started push harder against them, so the came back to Rome with their hats in their hand, and they became the Greek Catholics.

The doctrinal principles are only on the surface. The Enemy wants us to believe that those are the most important. But as in that time the political affiliation and taxation; now the sentiment against the feminism and other liberal issues are much deeper, and work more effectively in the long run.
 
Yes, Iaszlo, as I said I see this as a great grace and perhaps the Holy See is being most patient and merciful with these groups because through no fault of their own, they have been denied their spiritual heritage. It may take time, even a few generations, to undue the evil that was wrought on the English people 500 years ago. Meantime, we should all be glad they’re coming home.
 
The fruit of Vatican II = one hundred thousand men leaving the priesthood in the last fifty years, empty seminaries, ugly Novus Ordo liturgy, closing parishes, sexual abuse crises, bankrupt diocese, mass exodus of Catholics too the Evangelical and Charismatic Protestant churches and so forth ( if the last fifty years have been a “springtime” in the Church, I don’t want to be alive for the “winter”).

Anglican Bishops desiring to enter the Church = the Holy Spirit, one smart Holy Father (long live the Pope!) and Anglicanorum Coetibus.
 
basinite said:
The fruit of Vatican II = one hundred thousand men leaving the priesthood in the last fifty years, empty seminaries, ugly Novus Ordo liturgy, closing parishes, sexual abuse crises, bankrupt diocese, mass exodus of Catholics too the Evangelical and Charismatic Protestant churches and so forth ( if the last fifty years have been a “springtime” in the Church, I don’t want to be alive for the “winter”).

Anglican Bishops desiring to enter the Church = the Holy Spirit, one smart Holy Father (long live the Pope!) and Anglicanorum Coetibus.
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I’m sort of confused here. Aren’t the Anglican bishops accepting Vatican II and the Novus Ordo as true liturgy, “ugly” and all, as part of the package deal? Even the Anglican Use Mass had to be conformed to the Novus Ordo (“for you and for all”, etc) terminology.
 
ProVobis said:
I’m sort of confused here. Aren’t the Anglican bishops accepting Vatican II and the Novus Ordo as true liturgy, “ugly” and all, as part of the package deal? Even the Anglican Use Mass had to be conformed to the Novus Ordo (“for you and for all”, etc) terminology.
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As I understand things, the current Anglican Use is not considered transitional rather than permanent. Plus there is a certain amount of liturgical diversity among the incoming Anglicans. There have even been some rumors of a Latin variant reflecting a revival of the Sarum Rite. Taking all of that, fact and rumor, together, I think it will be very interesting to see how the Anglican Use liturgy looks when the provisions of Anglicanorum Coetibus are fully implemented.
 
basinite said:
The fruit of Vatican II = one hundred thousand men leaving the priesthood in the last fifty years, empty seminaries, ugly Novus Ordo liturgy, closing parishes, sexual abuse crises, bankrupt diocese, mass exodus of Catholics too the Evangelical and Charismatic Protestant churches and so forth ( if the last fifty years have been a “springtime” in the Church, I don’t want to be alive for the “winter”).

Anglican Bishops desiring to enter the Church = the Holy Spirit, one smart Holy Father (long live the Pope!) and Anglicanorum Coetibus.
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The number of the priest leaving the priesthood was roughly 25% in the first half of the 20th Century too. Did Vatican II act reversing the time?

Many people including me find the New rite of the Mass beautiful. If you find it ugly, this is probably because you have problem to accept the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, or deny the validity of the new rites as Mass

The legal industry created mess everywher most notably in the medical industry

The number of the Catholics (1 in every 6 man) is the same as it was 50 years ago. The Mass exodus and the protestant springtime is empty phrase.
 
The number of the Catholics (1 in every 6 man) is the same as it was 50 years ago.
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If my math is correct, if 25% of “Catholics” attend Mass every Sunday, that would make it 1 out of every 24 man who attends Mass regularly today. I doubt if this was so 50 years ago.
 
basinite said:
Here’s some more “fruit” from Vatican II.

olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml
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Mr Buchanan forgot to analyze what would be happen w/o Vatican II. A good experimental base is the statistics how many people attend the traditional Masses, and how many priest offer the traditional Mass.

Without showing the other side no one can get honest conclusions.
 
The Anglicans are coming home to get back to tradition which they are losing. Oddly enough their service is more traditional than ours.
 
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