The Fruits of Vatican II

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If it’s so obvious, why was there a need for explanation?

It was obvious it was Sacrifice… but I needed explanation for exact meaning behind everything.

But I gues I’ll generalize a bit and say “EF does better job at signifying that it is Sacrifice than OF does in terms of rituals and gestures”. I wouldn’t say it is exactly obvious for everyone, but it is better than at OF I guess. That’s my take on it at least.

 

[whatistrue]

It was obvious it was Sacrifice

What made it obvious? I keep hearing these claims, but not so far any real objective support for them.

 

[Dovekin]

Sacrifice is much more obvious from rituals and gestures of EF than from rituals and gestures of OF- so if one does not understand Latin, EF is still superior in this aspect .

I do not see it. I am not asking which is better, just which is more obviously about sacrifice. We live in a society where almost no one has ever seen a sacrifice. How do we recognize that something is a sacrifice? I do not know. About the only thing that reminds me of sacrifice is the washing of hands. But that exists in both forms. What else would remind someone of sacrifice?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

What made it obvious? I keep hearing these claims, but not so far any real objective support for them.

Prayers emphasize that. Other than that the silence, the bells, the genuflections. Each prayer, each gesture has ancient lineage, each its own part in the masterpiece. Each has been developed by continuous tradition of the Latin Church.

OF does quite good job at contemplative silence, something much less common for example in Byzantine Divine Liturgy (and this was pointed out to me by Byzantine Catholic Priest who is learning EF), but EF puts more emphasis on it. Problem is that OF for example allows to omit Saints from Eucharistic Prayers and as such it can lead to lesser emphasis on unity of Church Triumphant with us- integral part of the Sacrifice of the Mass as Saints are always present at every single Mass (reason Priest speaks to congregation even if celebrating Mass alone with no congregation).

I am not asking which is better

I prefer reverent traditional OF to reverent EF myself. Perhaps the silence is what I am unused to… but when it comes to emphasis of Sacrifice, I think EF does that somewhat better.

OF is better at incorporating active participation of people other than servers. Prayers of the Faithful are great. But since OF is newer and was promulgated to replace EF, it would be nice if OF was at least equal in emphasis of something so important that Anglican Church does not validly confer nor receive Holy Orders for not emphasizing it enough.

We live in a society where almost no one has ever seen a sacrifice.

We should see it every Sunday.

 

[Emeraldlady]

But I gues I’ll generalize a bit and say “EF does better job at signifying that it is Sacrifice than OF does in terms of rituals and gestures”. I wouldn’t say it is exactly obvious for everyone, but it is better than at OF I guess. That’s my take on it at least.

At the end of the day “better” is as you say, your “take on it”. Which is the same for every person who prefers the TLM. What is more important than anything is the fruits that come from the grace of the Sacrament.

 

[Norseman82]

What three things would you name as the greatest fruits of Vatican II?

1. Holiness is not just for the clergy / religious, but also for laypeople.
2. Catholics allowed to speak English now.
3. Hybrid icing rule.

 

[whatistrue]

Prayers emphasize that. Other than that the silence, the bells, the genuflections

I am sorry, but I just don’t see how prayers in a language I don’t know and sounds and gestures make anything obvious. Once one learns the ritual, sure, you see the connection, but the ritual itself is not obvious in the way that I understand it.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

At the end of the day “better” is as you say, your “take on it”.

Sure. As I said above, I do prefer OF over EF… so it isn’t same just for “every person who prefers the TLM”.

What is more important than anything is the fruits that come from the grace of the Sacrament.

Of course. Liturgy of whatever form is indeed the highest gift Church has been given.

 

[Tolle_Lege]

Although nearly 60 years ago at this point, Vatican 2 has really encompassed just 4 pontificates: Paul VI, who was a bridge connected the pre- and post-Vatican 2 Church; John Paul I was not Pope for very long, so I am not counting him; then JPII, Benedict XVI, and Francis.

So in many ways, we’re not just speaking of the “fruits” of Vatican 2, but the fresh fruits of Vatican 2. The changes are in such a stage of infancy right now, so there are many more years to come.