The futility of prayer

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dang 71,

I can’t tell whether you belive in prayer, or not, by your post. I sympathize with your puzzlement over discerning the Will of God, as I often wonder about this myself. If we beg Him in prayer to reveal His Will to us, are we ever sure?

Are the imaginative ways we solve issues God’s response, or a product of our own cleverness? If the results of our efforts are good, have we correctly understood God? If the same results are bad, do we attribute it to our sinful pride? Good point, and a great source of frustration since most devout, good, people want a concrete answer - they are more than willing to do exactly as God asks.

Oh, if only He spoke to us that way, huh?

In reading the Lives of the Saints you read how they completely surrender their will to God. Truthfully, I’m not sure how one knows this, but most of them accomplish extraordinary feats in their submissive role. The Church will probably advise us to “know God” through education and Scripture Readings…if we “know” Him, then His Will becomes apparently clear. This is good advice, but not necessarily the advice I want…again, Pride!

I know in life, if I asked my father what it is he wants me to do, he would say, “Cut the lawn!”. Then I know I have pleased him. I wish God was just as clear to those of us who truly love Him.

Thanks.
 
dang71 said:
one unanswered question so far is, how do we differentiate when it is God speaking to us from all the other voices and noises in our life? how do i determine God is working through one person’s advice and not through another’s? how do i know God is working through one happening/occurrence, and not another, one bumper sticker and not another?

all of this seems way too easy to get wrong, way too easy to be led astray, and it seems unreasonable and illogical that God would not give us some concrete way of differentiating His voice from that of our own desires, or the voice of others.

if God has not given us a 100% sure, concrete way of discerning His will, then we cannot trust any personal/individual “direction” we get
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Dear Dung,

I would answer in 2 points. You ask it was given to us the criteria to distinguish good from bad, to distinguish what was meant for our destiny and what was not, with other word what is His will for us. The answer is YES, it was given! Than you can ask, how is there that most people goes wrong? And the second answer is that this instrument has to be educated!!!
So, the first point. The criteria given to us is our heart (not the feelings, but the that place that is the residence of conscience and that does not lack of reason!). It is difficult to make a theology lesson on what heart means, but I can send you some texts on it if you want.
The second point is the education. If we were here alone, we would have no hope. But, we have the luck that we are not alone, we met Jesus because He Himself is present in the world through His body, the Church. So, there is a place where we can educate ourselves to the God’s will. There are also persons that have this experience and can help us, they are called spiritual fathers! There are also communities of laymen, normal people that help each other in this education. Communities in which each one witnesses with events form his/her life the presence of God in the world (not in the sense that they try to behave in a certain way, but that they recognize how God works in their lives and let the others know). I am part of one community of this type: Communion and Liberation.
And again on this education there is something more, the prayer itself. Ask God what you need and trust me, you will have the answer. Maybe you think that there is a strange rapport between us and God, like through 2 complete strangers (as we are different in nature!!!). But the relationship is more close than we can imagine, as we are continuously created by Him!
I’m sure that what I told you is very general. There is only one way to learn this things, letting yourself educated, by the Church through the people you have around. You have a heart that cannot be deceived, or totally deceived, so meeting the right people from which you can learn this, you will know them (the same way the Apostles themselves new that that men was the answer to their life so, they followed Him)!
With love in Christ,

Adelaida
 
It sounds overly simplistic and evasive to give you the answer I’m going to pose, but if you really contemplate what I am going to offer it is the best possible answer(s).

First. You must have faith. Faith plain and simple. It is a huge word, but so simple at the same time. I’m not talking about silly goose waking up to a new world every day faith, gullible believe anything anyone says to you faith. I’m talking about in your heart, soul and being faith. A faith given to and taken from God and Jesus.

Faith.

Second. God gave us free will. This free will interferes with our faith so often and causes us to doubt ourselves, our families, co-workers and even God. Without free will we would be shells, robots who do the bidding of a ruthless micromanaging, controlling God, who, as you put it, treats us like a marionette on strings.

Free Will.

I don’t pose these answers with the intent of making you believe I have a handle on these. I walk through my daily life and very frequently have the same doubts you do. It is a struggle more often than it is easy and restful. I cherish the times when my pray life is fulfilling and meaningful.

You may consider making an appointment with your priest and ask him if he will guide you through your questions. He can act as a spiritual director for you, even if he isn’t formally trained to be such. If you are in a large enough community where there are trained SD’s I would seek the aid of such a person. You will be amazed at how your life’s journey will change.

I will pray for you and for all who struggle (myself included) with knowing right and wrong ways to pray and with how to discern any answers we are given by our God.
 
**Knowing God’s Will - How to Ascertain the Will of God

**Knowing God’s will is the key to prayer, spiritual growth and fruitfulness in our individual lives. Here’s how George Müller set out to ascertain the will of God on a daily basis:

I seek at the beginning to get my heart into such a state that it has no will of its own in regard to a given matter. Nine-tenths of the trouble with people generally is just here. Nine-tenths of the difficulties are over come when our hearts are ready to do the Lord’s will, whatever it may be. When one is truly in this state, it is usually but a little way to the knowledge of what His will is.

Having done this, I do not leave the result to feeling or simple impression. If so, I make myself liable to great delusions.
I seek the Will of the Spirit of God through, or in connection with, the Word of God. The Spirit and the Word must be combined. If I look to the Spirit alone without the Word, I lay myself open to great delusions also. If the Holy Ghost guides us at all, He will do it according to the Scriptures and never contrary to them.

Next I take into account providential circumstances. These often plainly indicate God’s Will in connection with His Word and Spirit.
I ask God in prayer to reveal His Will to me aright.

Thus, through prayer to God, the study of the Word, and reflection, I come to a deliberate judgment according to the best of my ability and knowledge, and if my mind is thus at peace, and continues so after two or three more petitions, I proceed accordingly. In trivial matters, and in transactions involving most important issues, I have found this method always effective.

(George Muller was an English evangelist and philanthropist.)
 
Tigg, your post says it a little more precisely than mine; sands it off and gives it a good polish 🙂

I love the process he outlines. What he is saying is what I have done at times without actually knowing I was doing it. When I look back at my “successful” prayer, I can say I utilized a similar process. Getting my “heart” with God, and being willing to do HIS will, and not my own. Too often I (we) approach prayer with an idea of how we want Him to answer, and those preconceived “answers” will always cause me (us) to stumble and be disappointed and often devastated because I (we) don’t get the “right”/OUR answer. Then actually being aware of the answer when it comes to us is the other key, and very often difficult to accept.

This is truly the big question every person who prays ponders and wrestles with. I’m glad the OP gave us the opportunity to open this and have a fruitful dialog.
 
Tigg said:
I seek at the beginning to get my heart into such a state that it has no will of its own in regard to a given matter. … When one is truly in this state, it is usually but a little way to the knowledge of what His will is.
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this sounds really nice, and i would like to try this. could you please tell me how i can achieve this? what are the steps i must take in order to get my heart in this state, and how can i know when my heart is in this state?
 
Grandpop said:
Just last week I attended a Catholic Education class for adults, and my concept of prayer was turned inside out! It started out with the fact that sin does NOT affect, or hurt, God - since He is infinitely perfect in nature.

This was followed by the point that our prayers do NOT “change God’s mind”, so to speak - again, due to His perfection.

It makes sense, yes, but I have always felt that our pleas to God through prayer can certainly affect Him. I always felt that He loves the fact that “I asked”, and He will respond as a father would to his own son. I asked questions about this “dilemma” within me, and was told that God is the “Perfect Lover”, Who will never decieve us, hate us, abandon us, etc. Our job is to open ourselves up as a 'perfect lover" in return. Complete reliance on God will open up a shower of gifts to us.

HI grandpop!
And yet in with what you write, what of “we are told not to own anything” and yet “God made us to His own likeness” In the Bible we are told that God says “you belong to me before time was I created you and your name is written in the palm of my hand”

Putting all this another way what of "if we love, we will not own but will allow people to be free. So if in the light of being like to God then sin by others should not affect us, and the “perfect lover” is not to be taken in the light of human thought word or deed. To be “GOD” centered should be our stance in life, NOT with a humanistic approach.
With all this the fact that we are faulty still gives us the ability somehow to be God like in what we do, how we relate to others. And then the things of the earth will become strangely dim.

Does that make sense?
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dang71 said:
this sounds really nice, and i would like to try this. could you please tell me how i can achieve this? what are the steps i must take in order to get my heart in this state, and how can i know when my heart is in this state?
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The key is to fall in love with Jesus the Spirit the Father much much more than you could love a human. Give all your thoughts words deeds over to God look only to doing what you do ,think, or say to pleasing God. See in others not the person but God in that person. See everything like trees a blade of grass, as not being trees jor a blade of grass but God’s creation etc.
In all that we do listen to the spirit of God within you telling you that God knows all that you need so why do we go looking for the clothing we need or the food we want, or the things of this earth we tend towards.

Another way of putting it is to become (as St John stated) to become nothing so that God may become all.
Think of the word “little” In the sense it means to deny the flesh for the spirit to grow.Turn everything around from worldly to spiritually.
So, from “I want” to “I need”.
We don’t need anything of the earth, for Jesus tells us that if we are made closer to Him than birds that God feeds every day then how much more does God know what our needs are?
There is only one thing we need, and that is God’s Love and His forgiving nature ( seek first the kingdom of God)

So here is a way, to deny the flesh be doing without, by using things such as a shaver without the larder , using the toilet without the seat down, when you want to watch something on tv turn it off, when you don’t like the things a person does then make a point of smiling at to or working with them in a happy mood. Do things for others in a way that God would do it.
There is a little touch.
Godbless.
 
Dang, have you tried the different forms of prayer described in the “How we can experience or hear God” thread?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=245496

Here’s the discussion thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=245495

It can take a while with one of these ways of praying, before results begin to show themselves. Jesus talks in the scripture about watering a seed daily, and for a long time, the seed’s growth in the ground remains invisible. But one day it will sprout forth and become visible, and it grows and grows and becomes very tall and very glorious to behold. That’s what prayer life is like.
 
I went through a passage of being unable totally to discern God’s Will and also dryness and difficulty with Prayer. My then director encouraged me to see the duties of my state in life as God’s Will for me (which at the time seemed as if he was copping out on me - my director I mean putting me in the “too hard” basket) and also during my half hour prayer times to read some spiritual work and if anything struck me to pause and think about it - I began prayer asking God to help me and concluded with a “Thank you” (and thinking again my director was copping out on me) It took a fair while but finally it hit me that the duties of my state in life were actually God’s Will for me - like a blind suddenly going up in a dark room and that the only thing that was not God’s Will for my life was sin.

It is quite ok spiritually to walk through life trying to avoid sin and if one fails to attend Confession…growth (meaning change) will come from that for absolutely sure. I know it is a very difficult position to be in but God has His Reasons…and God being Ultimate Mystery sometimes His Reasons just cannot be discerned. It is also quite ok during difficulty with prayer to read a book during one’s prayer time beginning and ending with a short prayer…and if anything one reads strikes one to pause and think about it prayerfully.

With prayer after a fair while I found I was able to put the book down and just talk to The Lord in my own words and then to pick the book up again if I ran out of words myself or if the silence god too much for me. After a relatively long stretch I was able to put the book away completely. Although I still keep a book and also a book I have compiled of various prayers at my side during prayer time.

If one is trying to discern God’s Will connected to taking up some ministry or some other matter of discernment, pray about it (and I dont mean necessarily for hours or long periods - God hears one the first time and in fact knows what is in our hearts before we mention it); read books connected with discerning and also speak with someone about it. Spend at least 5mins. daily reading Scripture. And don’t make a decision, delay it, until one is absolutely sure and no matter how long it may take.

It can happen that our prayers seem to fall on deaf ears…and “seem” is the operative word. God always hears and answers our prayers and sometimes any silence on His part means simply “wait and keep praying” for His Reasons, again mysterious to us.

Finally, to find and have a good spiritual director (sometimes nowadays called “spiritual companion”) is of immeasurable benefit, pure gold, in the spiritual journey.
one unanswered question so far is, how do we differentiate when it is God speaking to us from all the other voices and noises in our life? how do i determine God is working through one person’s advice and not through another’s? how do i know God is working through one happening/occurrence, and not another, one bumper sticker and not another?

all of this seems way too easy to get wrong, way too easy to be led astray, and it seems unreasonable and illogical that God would not give us some concrete way of differentiating His voice from that of our own desires, or the voice of others.
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Be assured that if one is at Peace and that nothing it is sinful, then it is God speaking to you. Our relationship with The Lord is alive and dynamic and what The Lord says on one occasion may shift on the next occasion. God is Ultimately Total Mystery…and “mystery” is what it implies - one cannot understand. Again a spiritual director or companion is pure gold and one can always be directed and advised by him/her. The only thing that is going to lead us astray from God and His Will is sin.

God bless you and may The Holy Spirit be your guide and inspiration at this difficult time…Barb:)
 
That was a really good post, Barbara, and I’d just like to select one part of it and repost it because I thought it was so important:
Finally, to find and have a good spiritual director (sometimes nowadays called “spiritual companion”) is of immeasurable benefit, pure gold, in the spiritual journey.

I really, really encourage you to do this, Dang71. We’re a Body of Christ, and we suffer and rejoice together. The Spiritual Director, as part of the Body of Christ, can serve as a type of Christ for you and help to direct you in your spiritual journey. That’s what all people in authority in our lives are- types of Christ. I have no doubt that if you get a good Spiritual Director, that would have enormous benefit. You don’t need to experience this pain alone, and a Spiritual Director’s wisdom and insight will be a great blessing, certainly greatly increasing the likelihood of you finding the answers you seek.

You can ask your priest to help you find such a person.
 
Lief_Erikson said:
That was a really good post, Barbara, and I’d just like to select one part of it and repost it because I thought it was so important:
Finally, to find and have a good spiritual director (sometimes nowadays called “spiritual companion”) is of immeasurable benefit, pure gold, in the spiritual journey.

I really, really encourage you to do this, Dang71. We’re a Body of Christ, and we suffer and rejoice together. The Spiritual Director, as part of the Body of Christ, can serve as a type of Christ for you and help to direct you in your spiritual journey. That’s what all people in authority in our lives are- types of Christ. I have no doubt that if you get a good Spiritual Director, that would have enormous benefit. You don’t need to experience this pain alone, and a Spiritual Director’s wisdom and insight will be a great blessing, certainly greatly increasing the likelihood of you finding the answers you seek.

You can ask your priest to help you find such a person.
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The other point about spiritual direction or companionship is that we are usually not the best judges or assessors of our own selves…we can find it difficult to be entirely objective about ourselves, whereas one who has access to our most personal and private thoughts and our spirituality (a director or companion)is in a position to be in that quite objective position where oneself is concerned.

If your parish priest cannot help you re finding a director, then your diocesan offices should ideally also be able to direct you to a point or points where you can find a director. Failing this, most religious orders of priests and brothers undertake spiritual direction most often. The other place that may be able to assist you is religious orders of nuns who may know of priests, nuns or indeed nowadays trained lay people, who undertake spiritual direction.
Code: 
     My own diocese has set up a spirituality office where all spiritual directors are registered and if one contacts the diocesan offices, they will send out a list of directors with telephone numbers.  I hope most all, if not all, diocesan offices are adopting this practise.
Blessings - Barb:)
 
To little one,
Yes, your reply makes great sense, and I appreciate your educating me a bit more! Detaching yourself from the things of this earth is something I’ve tried to work on as I grow. I used to believe it meant to have nothing, to be intentionally poor. Yet I’ve learned it’s not to be attached to anything irrationally, not to chase after novelties in pursuit of happiness. To put nothing between yourself and God. It’s amazing how little we do need in this world to live comfortably.
Thank you for your kind words.
Grandpop.
 
Grandpop said:
To little one,
Yes, your reply makes great sense, and I appreciate your educating me a bit more! Detaching yourself from the things of this earth is something I’ve tried to work on as I grow. I used to believe it meant to have nothing, to be intentionally poor. Yet I’ve learned it’s not to be attached to anything irrationally, not to chase after novelties in pursuit of happiness. To put nothing between yourself and God. It’s amazing how little we do need in this world to live comfortably.
Thank you for your kind words.
Grandpop.
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In Barbara’s signature line, I see the word “Simplicity!” Great word, that is, but initially very hard to grasp in one’s daily living.

Two years ago, I was at my spiritual wit’s end over circumstances in my life. At a Catholic gift shop, my eye caught the title of a book called “Teaching the Dead Bird to Sing.” That book was my spiritual director over the next three months. It is written by a theologian and former social activist who entered into the monastic/hermetical life.

That is the second time in my long life the Lord has handed me a book to read. It was as if the words were written specifically and directly to me! THANK YOU, LORD!
 
dang71 said:
for myself, and i think for most people, i just want to know that what i am doing is the right thing. and if i am not doing the right thing, i would like to know it, and so be able to change it. i just want to be comfortable knowing i am on the right track, or at least working towards getting on the right track. the silence i hear, and the absence i feel, only fills me with fear and dread. it is the uncertainty of my position that causes me to despair, not knowing if what i am doing is pleasing to God, or if i am riding the racehorse to hell. it is the uncertainty that causes me to question and inspect everything, but never coming up with a real answer. i don’t expect things to be easy, and i most certainly understand that it wont be, but the inability to take comfort in the knowledge that i am at least heading in the right direction is very discouraging and disheartening. is the absence i feel a sign that i am on the right track, or is it a sign that i am in the elevator traveling downwards? is there really a way to know the true answer to that question in this life? i don’t know.
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If this is truly your concern, then I wouldn’t be as concerned as you are. This is what I try to do with my life: Try my best to stay out of a state of mortal sin, going to Confession when I have to, (You never know when you’ll die in a car wreck or something.) and try my best to be as nice and as helpful to others as I can. If you have any questions as to what a mortal sin is, that’s what the Catechism is there for. I’ve looked through it several times. Get yourself one at any Catholic bookstore. Trust yourself a little bit. The “catch” with being Catholic, which might I add, Protestants do NOT like this, is that we believe that our Eternal salvation is determined by God and God alone. We have to have complete faith that our efforts in this life will be enough to win His ultimate Approval. Protestants, on the other hand, believe that believing in the Death and Resurrection of Christ is enough. That’s why you hear them all the time urging you to “Accept Christ as your personal Savior.” That’s all well and good, but I’m sorry it’s just not enough. I am reminded of Jesus’s Greatest Commandment: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. You should love your neighbor as yourself.” The “love your neighbor” part is the part that Protestants leave off in the whole “personal Savior” statement.
Code: 
  I have a similar post about the rosary called "Rosary Efficacy Question."  It's nice to know that somebody else out there has the same concerns about the "efficacy" of prayer in general.  What I'm coming to realize is that I personally have a problem depending on God.  I want to try to do everything myself, out of pride, I guess.  It's hard for me to understand that God actually WANTS to be involved in my life.  I always thought He was too "busy" for me.  But with the help of the fine posters who have responded to my questions, I am learning that dependence on the Lord is not only okay, but can be necessary.  The devil is a powerful adversary, and I continually underestimate this. 

  I hope I've helped you some, or at least made you feel better.  Both of us need to keep praying, I guess, and the fine people on this forum will make sure we do that.  :D
Tracy
 
Tigg said:
In Barbara’s signature line, I see the word “Simplicity!” Great word, that is, but initially very hard to grasp in one’s daily living.

Two years ago, I was at my spiritual wit’s end over circumstances in my life. At a Catholic gift shop, my eye caught the title of a book called “Teaching the Dead Bird to Sing.” That book was my spiritual director over the next three months. It is written by a theologian and former social activist who entered into the monastic/hermetical life.

That is the second time in my long life the Lord has handed me a book to read. It was as if the words were written specifically and directly to me! THANK YOU, LORD!
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Hi Tigg…I must admit that it was the aesthetics of the signature “Simplicity” that really caught my eye! Especially the full stop after the word “Simplicity”…it says absolute mountains - inspirational (actually it just now caught my eye and seemed to ‘leap out’ at me)…as is the plain white background.
That is the second time in my long life the Lord has handed me a book to read. It was as if the words were written specifically and directly to me!
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…then my thoughts are, that they were!👍 …
THANK YOU, LORD!
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Alleluia Amen!

Blessings and regards…Barb:)
 
Grandpop said:
To little one,
Yes, your reply makes great sense, and I appreciate your educating me a bit more! Detaching yourself from the things of this earth is something I’ve tried to work on as I grow. I used to believe it meant to have nothing, to be intentionally poor. Yet I’ve learned it’s not to be attached to anything irrationally, not to chase after novelties in pursuit of happiness. To put nothing between yourself and God. It’s amazing how little we do need in this world to live comfortably.
Thank you for your kind words.
Grandpop.
Click to expand...
Yes, these are the very things are they that hold us from building in spiritual union with God.
I have a situation at work with my work mate where he is so clumsy and doesn’t care about our tools throwing them down and costing huge money, but he is the lead hand, not I.
I am the opposite and try to be meticulous and it is hard to do as. Therese did and smile letting things go. Taking no notice and letting the spirit of God take over, I in turn am fighting for that position that I know God wnat’s me to gain.

To some degree or other we are all trying for that form of perfection, and in the end we may gain it or the end will come.

We have to be like the little bird that went up one step and fell down only to realize that should God not be asked to intervene, then we can go no further.
Once we let go and ask God then miracle’s happen.

God bless Grandpa.
 
Quoting littleone
To some degree or other we are all trying for that form of perfection, and in the end we may gain it or the end will come.
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A very important point I thought! Little St. Therese said that when a jug is full, then it is full…and when a thimble is full, then it is full. This was such a beautiful and simple statement so rich in meaning and spot on theologically. In other words, we all are called to different levels, even types, of perfection…I think for example of a Mother Teresa who grew into a wondrous reflection of God’s Loving Mercy in her works for the dying…while a St. Teresa of Avila grew into a wondrous reflection of mystical prayer and mysticism, mystical Union with God. St. Therese grew into a wondrous reflection of a child of God’s Loving Mercy and Fatherhood - of the hidden spiritual way of littleness and simplicity in the very ordinary duties of God’s Will for an ordinary type life. St. Faustina grew into a wondrous reflection of mysticism and also The Lord’s message to us of His Love and Mercy, which is so staggering if you read St. Faustina’s diaries. Holiness, sanctity or sainthood is to realize through Grace one’s true identity and reason for being here.

I think you raised a very important point, littleone…and with simplicity that said so very much and spot on theologically.

Blessings and regards…Barb:)
 
BarbaraTherese said:
Quoting littleone

A very important point I thought! Little St. Therese said that when a jug is full, then it is full…and when a thimble is full, then it is full. This was such a beautiful and simple statement so rich in meaning and spot on theologically. In other words, we all are called to different levels, even types, of perfection…I think for example of a Mother Teresa who grew into a wondrous reflection of God’s Loving Mercy in her works for the dying…while a St. Teresa of Avila grew into a wondrous reflection of mystical prayer and mysticism, mystical Union with God. St. Therese grew into a wondrous reflection of a child of God’s Loving Mercy and Fatherhood - of the hidden spiritual way of littleness and simplicity in the very ordinary duties of God’s Will for an ordinary type life. St. Faustina grew into a wondrous reflection of mysticism and also The Lord’s message to us of His Love and Mercy, which is so staggering if you read St. Faustina’s diaries. Holiness, sanctity or sainthood is to realize through Grace one’s true identity and reason for being here.

I think you raised a very important point, littleone…and with simplicity that said so very much and spot on theologically.

Blessings and regards…Barb:)
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Barb: Your comments reminded me of a Bible study I once did on Revelation - I have copied some notes below.

I will give the hidden manna; I will also give him a white stone upon which is inscribed a new name, to be known only by him who receives it. Rev 2:17.

A white stone, in the Hellenistic world, was sometimes used as an admission ticket for a royal assembly. It was also given to those who had been given an acquittal in a jury trial. Throughout Revelation white symbolizes victory. But whose name is written on the stone? It cannot be our Baptismal name, nor Confirmation name, because those names are known to all. How can the stone be new and known only to the victor? This underscores the intensely personal nature of our salvation. Each of us struggles in our own way to conquer sin and temptation. What may be a struggle for one in a particular area, may not be a struggle for another, but rest assured that Christ will know and reward each according to his own measure. The inscription on the stone will relate to one who is faithful in a very unique and personal way to the Father and the Son, and each who enters heaven will give God a particular glory that no one else can give! It will involve the unique and personal witness that individual gave to Christ on earth. This unique name, known only to the victor and the Lord, is the reward of being faithful unto death. (Commentary by Fr. George Montague, Professor of Sacred Scripture, St. Mary’s University, San Antonio, TX).
 
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