The Future of the Celebration of the Mass

[Mi_Rose]

As the wife of a deacon, I know of no deacon who would want to be a priest, no matter what was done to modify the vocation.Permanent Deacons have a call from God to be deacons not priests. I am amazed at how many times that has to be stated on these forums. Those are two different things and a lot of discernment goes into the decision of how a man wants to serve God.

 

[Wesrock]

Holy Orders is a calling. A personal calling of the Holy Spirit. Men should not be chosen for the priesthood in this fashion. Nor does it sound right for there to be a separate class of priests.

Pope Francis is asking the existing priests to get out more. If anything, though, it does sound like a permanent deacon could take on some of the responsibilities you outline.

 

[babochka]

As the wife of a deacon, I know of no deacon who would want to be a priest, no matter what was done to modify the vocation.Permanent Deacons have a call from God to be deacons not priests. I am amazed at how many times that has to be stated on these forums. Those are two different things and a lot of discernment goes into the decision of how a man wants to serve God.

But it isn’t such a large leap.

Every priest is also a deacon, so it logically follows that every vocation to the priesthood also includes a vocation to the diaconate. It isn’t one or the other.

In the case of deacons who do not presently feel a call to the priesthood, it is possible that God will send that calling in the future, if the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, were to open up that possibility.

 

[Mi_Rose]

All priests are deacons but the decision not to take the further step to priesthood is already made when a man decides to be a permanent deacon. it is not a consolation prize There is much discernment involved… It is a choice to serve through preaching teaching and service not at the altar.in persona Christi.
As to whether the role of deacon could be expanded, that is up to the Church

 

[babochka]

All priests are deacons but the decision not to take the further step to priesthood is already made when a man decides to be a permanent deacon. it is not a consolation prize There is much discernment involved… It is a choice to serve through preaching teaching and service not at the altar.in persona Christi.
As to whether the role of deacon could be expanded, that is up to the Church

I understand that you’re probably tired of people thinking that a deacon is some sort of priest-lite, something men settle on because they couldn’t become priests.

All I’m saying is that we don’t know what God has in store. God called Jonah and he most definitely did not want to be a prophet. I know a priest who was ordained in his 70s. He had served as a deacon for many years with no desire or plans to serve as a priest. A few years after he became a widower, the Holy Spirit came calling and he answered that call. He served for several years as a priest and pastor and is now retired.

 

[otjm]

But it isn’t such a large leap.

Every priest is also a deacon, so it logically follows that every vocation to the priesthood also includes a vocation to the diaconate. It isn’t one or the other.

In the case of deacons who do not presently feel a call to the priesthood, it is possible that God will send that calling in the future, if the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, were to open up that possibility.

It may be a larger leap than you realize. I will reiterate what Mi Rose said - the men coming forward to the deaconate program are vetted thoroughly.

A point to consider: it appears this may have been part of the reluctance of the US bishops to even institute the permanent deaconate program in the US. Originally, they decided to not institute it at all; it was only at the urging (I have heard it as at the insistence of) Pope Paul VI that they finally started. As of 1975, there were 898 permanent deacons. As of 41 years later, there were 18,173.

Given the bishops’ reluctance to even ordain one, I personally would not presume that the bishops today would agree to accept any permanent deacons who requested consideration. I have no idea if there are any issues in place in Canon law or otherwise, which also might be a consideration.

According to news sources, Pope Francis has suggested that the Church consider oradining married men; as I read it, it sounded as if it might be a limited number. Even considering it is going to take some time (in spite of the fact that we have married priests, primarily from Anglican/Episcopalian, Methodist and Lutheran backgrounds) as I have heard untold numbers of clergy respond to the issue as if it were a matter of celibacy being done away with. In short, it will not go down gently.

Couple the issue of ordaining married men to the priesthood with the reluctance to ordain them to the permanent deaconate as well as the vetting that this is not a step to the eventual ordaining married me to priesthood, and there appears to be more barrier than most realize.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I am simply looking at what is in existence today, and what its history has been. Could it happen? The Holy Spirit moves as it will, and I would not say “impossible”. But there is little to support that it would happen, other than guessing.

 

[Solomonson]

As the wife of a deacon,** I know of no deacon who would want to be a priest**, no matter what was done to modify the vocation.Permanent Deacons have a call from God to be deacons not priests. I am amazed at how many times that has to be stated on these forums. Those are two different things and a lot of discernment goes into the decision of how a man wants to serve God.

I do. Despite the difference in vocations as you point out.

 

[Solomonson]

But it isn’t such a large leap.

**Every priest is also a deacon, so it logically follows that every vocation to the priesthood also includes a vocation to the diaconate. It isn’t one or the other. **

In the case of deacons who do not presently feel a call to the priesthood, it is possible that God will send that calling in the future, if the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, were to open up that possibility.

Be careful though.

If a man was indeed called to the priesthood, but for whatever reason chose to get married and possibly have kids, it would be gravely wrong for him to later “settle” for becoming a permanent deacon. They are very different vocations. I suspect the great majority of permanent deacons I know would try to become priests if that was open to them.

I remember once talking to an outstanding, married Eastern Catholic gentleman with a family. I had known him for quite some time and he seemed to have all the qualities that would make an awesome deacon. One day I asked if he had ever discerned the permanent diaconate? He said that he seriously had – for a number of years.

The conclusion he reached (with the help of a good spiritual advisor and plenty of prayer) was that it was quite possible he was called to the priesthood but not the diaconate. His comments really made me think – and continue to do so.

 

[Solomonson]

It may be a larger leap than you realize. I will reiterate what Mi Rose said - the men coming forward to the deaconate program are vetted thoroughly.

A point to consider: it appears this may have been part of the reluctance of the US bishops to even institute the permanent deaconate program in the US. Originally, they decided to not institute it at all; it was only at the urging (I have heard it as at the insistence of) Pope Paul VI that they finally started. ** As of 1975, there were 898 permanent deacons. As of 41 years later, there were 18,173. **

Given the bishops’ reluctance to even ordain one, I personally would not presume that the bishops today would agree to accept any permanent deacons who requested consideration. I have no idea if there are any issues in place in Canon law or otherwise, which also might be a consideration.

According to news sources, Pope Francis has suggested that the Church consider oradining married men; as I read it, it sounded as if it might be a limited number. Even considering it is going to take some time (in spite of the fact that we have married priests, primarily from Anglican/Episcopalian, Methodist and Lutheran backgrounds) as I have heard untold numbers of clergy respond to the issue as if it were a matter of celibacy being done away with. In short, it will not go down gently.

Couple the issue of ordaining married men to the priesthood with the reluctance to ordain them to the permanent deaconate as well as the vetting that this is not a step to the eventual ordaining married me to priesthood, and there appears to be more barrier than most realize.

I don’t have a dog in the fight. I am simply looking at what is in existence today, and what its history has been. Could it happen? The Holy Spirit moves as it will, and I would not say “impossible”. But there is little to support that it would happen, other than guessing.

Very interesting comments…

The 20x growth in the number of deacons is astounding. Imagine if the priesthood had grown at a similar rate…

 

[Solomonson]

Holy Orders is a calling. A personal calling of the Holy Spirit. Men should not be chosen for the priesthood in this fashion. Nor does it sound right for there to be a separate class of priests.

Pope Francis is asking the existing priests to get out more. If anything, though, it does sound like a permanent deacon could take on some of the responsibilities you outline.

Being chosen would not be mutually exclusive of being called by the Holy Spirit. I think men would need to first be chosen AND THEN their personal discernment would begin.