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chevalier
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[Vern Humphrey]
Sorry, but you are wrong. A gap would matter if it existed because a whole apostolic line would be invalid. They wouldn’t have valid orders, so they would all be unable validly to absolve sins, consecrate and further ordain.
If you say that a gap doesn’t matter for valid orders, then you must accept Anglican or Lutheran ordinations as valid. If you don’t believe that only a validly consecrated bishop can ordain priests, then you have to accept Presbyterian ordinations.
Canon Law and the whole teaching of the Church is pretty clear on this one: only a bishop can ordain priests or bishops and for some sacraments validity of the orders is required.
If a gap in apostolic succession doesn’t matter, why don’t yourself ordain a couple of priests?
A gap doesn’t affect the Gospel, but it does affect the sacraments which are administered to the faithful. Confession, consecration and holy orders are invalid if the minister’s orders are invalid. Also marriage requires convalidation if the assistant had been supposed to be an ordained bishop, priest or deacon but wasn’t one. Heck, marriage would be invalid if the assistant were delegated by someone with invalid priestly orders (to perform acts of governance one needs holy orders and this is an act of governance also relating to sacraments). Sounds like a horror. Really. It’s good we don’t have gaps.
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vern_humphrey
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Then explain why the gap between the Crucifixion and Resurection doesn’t matter.
Because those churches do not have the Magisterium.
Your fundamental mistake here is comparing a lack of bishops on the one hand with heresy on the other. It isn’t the same thing.
If we suddenly lost all bishops, the Holy Spirit would provide.
But in the case of the Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterial churches, there was no lack of bishops – the bishops who had the Holy Spirit opposed the acts of these break-away churches.
That’s canon law – but the Holy Spirit is not bound by laws made by man, not even canon law.
If all the bishops were lost, the Holy Spirit would provide.
Why should I as long as we have bishops to do the job?
If God allows the demise of all bishops simultaneously, the Church will not die.
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chevalier
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You are dodging my arguments, plain as it is. You just fail to agree with the Catechism and the Canon Law on the matter of Holy Orders.
If we lost all bishops, Holy Spirit would provide. But if some of our bishops or priests actually have broken lines of succession, they have invalid orders. In our Church, only bishops with unbroken chain of succession from an apostle to themselves have valid orders and only priests and deacons ordained by such bishops have valid orders. This is not to say that God can’t choose to grace people through a priest or bishop who doesn’t know he has invalid orders, but the sacraments aren’t valid so far as the church discipline goes and this is actually the Magisterium that you call to your support. Apostolic succession and Holy Orders being valid only with unbroken chain of succession is a part of the Magisterium. According to the Magisterium, there is no valid bishop without an unbroken chain of succession back to an apostle and no valid priest or deacon save one ordained by such a bishop. God could always Himself ordain such an invalidly ordained person, but we can’t make such an assumption. We have to consider the persons invalidly ordained and the sacraments by them ministered to be invalid if the validity had been conditional upon the validity of their holy orders.
And if apostolic succession doesn’t matter, then ordination isn’t a sacrament. It would be laymen making other laymen clergymen (logical nonsense) or acting clergymen but still laymen, which means no priestly estate and no sacrificing priesthood but just pastors. We have sacrificing priesthood. We do trace apostolic lines back to the apostles and the Lord Himself.
What gap there? We had eleven bishops at that time.
That’s completely wrong. Old Catholic churches aren’t in communion with Rome and don’t have the Magisterium. But they have valid orders and their bishops can ordain further. The Eastern Churches don’t agree with us on matters of governance and even on some matters of faith, but their sacraments are still valid. That’s because their orders are valid. If their orders were invalid, even believing what we believe wouldn’t help them.
Your fundamental mistake here is confusing the validity of Holy Orders with keeping the teaching.
Sure, but we have never had lost all bishops and we have never had bishops or priests ordained by non-bishops.
If we lost all bishops, Holy Spirit would provide. But if some of our bishops or priests actually have broken lines of succession, they have invalid orders. In our Church, only bishops with unbroken chain of succession from an apostle to themselves have valid orders and only priests and deacons ordained by such bishops have valid orders. This is not to say that God can’t choose to grace people through a priest or bishop who doesn’t know he has invalid orders, but the sacraments aren’t valid so far as the church discipline goes and this is actually the Magisterium that you call to your support. Apostolic succession and Holy Orders being valid only with unbroken chain of succession is a part of the Magisterium. According to the Magisterium, there is no valid bishop without an unbroken chain of succession back to an apostle and no valid priest or deacon save one ordained by such a bishop. God could always Himself ordain such an invalidly ordained person, but we can’t make such an assumption. We have to consider the persons invalidly ordained and the sacraments by them ministered to be invalid if the validity had been conditional upon the validity of their holy orders.
The rite they used was invalid because they removed the sacrificial aspect of priesthood from the ordination and stopped believing it to be a sacrament, therefore having no intention sacramentally to confer on the person new powers which he had not previously possessed and no intention whatsoever of ordaining a sacrificing priest. The rites for episcopal ordination were also changed. Apostolic succession was in fact broken with next to no exception.
Holy Spirit is with the Church and the Church is promised not to err. The Church is who makes Canon Law and the Magisterium. The teaching on Holy Orders is a part of the Magisterium.
So you would have the authority to do so if our bishops didn’t do the job?
And if apostolic succession doesn’t matter, then ordination isn’t a sacrament. It would be laymen making other laymen clergymen (logical nonsense) or acting clergymen but still laymen, which means no priestly estate and no sacrificing priesthood but just pastors. We have sacrificing priesthood. We do trace apostolic lines back to the apostles and the Lord Himself.
Doesn’t relate to the question of the validity of orders in our priests and bishops who are actually alive.
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vern_humphrey
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No. You are inventing a most improbable scenario (perhaps Cu Chullain jumping over the wall and killing all bishops at a single stroke, leaving everyone else unhamred.)
The Apostolic Succession is for the real world, not for this imaginary world. But if such a thing WERE to occur, the Church would not die.
The official “birthday” of the Church is Penecost. If the Protestant concept of a “gap” matters, then the one between the Crucifixion and Resurrection is the key gap.
Whoa! Are you saying the Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians have the Magesterium?
Are you saying that Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterial orders are valid?
Funny, I was about to say the same thing about you.
And that’s the only situation where the so-called “gap” could occur.
Which is to say in the current universe there is no “gap.”
At the same time, we recoginze that even if Cu Chullain does jump the wall and kill the Bishops, it doesn’t matter. The Holy Spirit will provide and the Church will not perish.
And in this alternate univese, where Cu Chullain jumps the wall and kills all the Bishops, the Holy Spirit will provide. In such a universe, Canon Law as we have it would be like the Mosaic dietary laws – no longer suitable or required.
Are all the bishops dead? Has the Holy Spirit descended on me?
You’re confusing the Apostolic Succession with the Protestent concept of a “gap.”
Since the time of Christ, we have always had Apostles, who commissioned their successors, bishops. The fact that a seat may be vacant for a while until a successor is ordained is immaterial.
You’ll have to explain this concept of yours that Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterials have valid orders.
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