The Gates of Hell are Misrepresented

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Reformed_Rob

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Please understand, as a Protestant, I’m not here to bash Catholic doctrines, or argue just for the spite of arguing. I try to be cordial, but as Catholics here in the “Apologetics” arena, I see plenty of proof that you are anxious and capable of answering Protestant objections to your doctrines. So I present this challenge as cordially as possible, but I must word it strongly for it to seem real.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Catholic claim that is stated so erronously here, is that the Lord will not let his Church fall to false doctrines, for “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

I answer that,

“Gates” are defensive structures. The Lord is intending, and surely the Apostles, Peter especially, understood Christ to mean, that when the Church is on the offensive against tyranny in the world, and sin in individual’s lives, the power of Satan will succumb to the power and truth of the Gospel. Ultimately, the world will be predominately “Christianized”, and Isaiah 2 / Micah 4:1-3 will be fulfilled!

Nothing is spoken here about there being an “infallible” church magesterium that is guarded from doctrinal error in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the whole church! Actually, it’s just the contrary. Here the promise is to the fact that when the church is on the “offensive” against the “gates of hell”, those gates will not be able to withstand the onslaught of Christian dominion!

Now, what is mentioned about the church’s teaching authority? Well, let’s go 2 verses later, and we will see. Christ actually limited their teaching authority! Verse 20 - Christ warned His disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ!

So what becomes of such fancies as “the church is guarded from error?” The only guard spoken of here is the “guard structures for hell” and they will collapse to the Christians onslaught.
 
I’m not an apologist, but applying the simple rules of grammar to the quoted passage are enough to tell me that you are wrong.
 
Hello Rob,

Interesting and I like your reasonable attitude. However, ***prevail ***also implies kind of an offensive sense (as opposed to defensive [gates]) doesn’t it?

With all due respect, I find connecting the scripture Verse 20 (which is a specific command in a specific circumstance) to a general limitation on the apostles teaching authority to be most unreasonable, arbitrary, and inconsistent exegesis even from a Protetsant school of thought. I would put this in the category of anyone can make the bible say anything they want it to.

Greg
 
Here is what some folks more knowledgeable than I have to say about this verse. I hope you find it helpful.

The Revised Standard Version translates the phrase in question in Matthew 16:18 as “the powers of death”. The commentary in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible on the Gospel of Matthew, which uses the Revised Standard Version, says:
the powers of death: Literally, “the gates of Hades”. In the OT, Hades—also called “Sheol” or “the Pit”—is the place of the dead where souls descended through its gates (Ps 9:13, 17; Wis 16:13; Is 38:10; Jon 2:2). It is not hell, but a temporary realm where souls are detained until the Last Judgment (Rev 20:13-15). By extension, Hades is also the habitation of evil forces that bring about death and deception (Rev 6:8; 20:1-3). According to Jewish tradition, the foundation stone (Heb. 'eben shetiyyah) of the Jerusalem Temple capped off and sealed a long shaft leading down to the netherworld (Rev 9:1-2; 20:1-3). The Temple, resting securely on a rock, was thus the center of the cosmos, the junction between heaven and Hades. Drawing from this background, Jesus guarantees that the powers of death and deception will not overcome the Church—i.e., the new Temple built on Peter. He enables Peter (and his successors) to hold error at bay and faithfully proclaim the gospel (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 552).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 552, says:
Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve;[283]
Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the
Father, Peter had confessed: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living
God.” Our Lord then declared to him: “You are Peter, and on this rock I
will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against
it.”[284] Christ, the “living Stone”,[285] thus assures his Church, built
on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he
confessed Peter will remain the unshakeable rock of the Church. His
mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his
brothers in it.[286]
footnotes:
283. Cf Mk 3:16; 9:2; Lk 24:34; 1 Cor 15:5.
284. Mt 16:18.
285. 1 Pet 2:4.
286. Cf. Lk 22:32.
 
Here’s what another commentary has to say about this verse. Again, I hope you find it helpful.

The International Bible Commentary: A Catholic and Ecumenical Commentary for the Twenty-First Century, ed. William R. Farmer, et al., 1998, p. 1304, says:
According to 1 Enoch 62:8, after the Son of Man has been revealed to the holy and chosen ones “the congregation of the holy one shall be planted [cf. Isa 60:21] and all the chosen ones shall stand before him” (cf. 1 Enoch 38). Jesus will now build up this restored community of the faithful (Isa 57:14-15; 61:4; cf. 1 Enoch 53:6). “And the gates of Hades [death] will not prevail against it,” picking up the imagery of Isa 28:15-19 and 38:10, emphasizes that it will stand forever against all the forces of death and evil because God has made with the members of this restored community an everlasting covenant (Isa 55:3) and they will remain with the Son of Man forever (cf. Jer 15:19-21; 1 Enoch 62:13-16).
 
hi, bob. thanks for your thoughtful, intelligent, and tactful question. i appreciate your approach.

i think that the bits quoted by todd give you some idea of an answer from the catholic perspective.

i’d suggest, though, the idea developed by augustine in ‘the city of God’. as the ‘kingdom of God’ moves through history alongside the ‘kingdom of the world’, you can see how both ideas are possible, and interrelated. in other words, the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, and the church will not be overcome by the gates of hell.

you might see them as ships moving through the water side by side. they are constantly trying to overcome one another, and we are assured that the ‘gates of hell’ ship will not overcome the ‘church’ ship, no matter who is running into whom.

does that make sense? are you familiar with augustine’s image?
 
Reformed Rob:
Please understand, as a Protestant, I’m not here to bash Catholic doctrines, or argue just for the spite of arguing. I try to be cordial, but as Catholics here in the “Apologetics” arena, I see plenty of proof that you are anxious and capable of answering Protestant objections to your doctrines. So I present this challenge as cordially as possible, but I must word it strongly for it to seem real.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Catholic claim that is stated so erronously here, is that the Lord will not let his Church fall to false doctrines, for “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

I answer that,

“Gates” are defensive structures. The Lord is intending, and surely the Apostles, Peter especially, understood Christ to mean, that when the Church is on the offensive against tyranny in the world, and sin in individual’s lives, the power of Satan will succumb to the power and truth of the Gospel. Ultimately, the world will be predominately “Christianized”, and Isaiah 2 / Micah 4:1-3 will be fulfilled!
Click to expand...
As stated above, prevail implies an attacking position.
Nothing is spoken here about there being an “infallible” church magesterium that is guarded from doctrinal error in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the whole church! Actually, it’s just the contrary. Here the promise is to the fact that when the church is on the “offensive” against the “gates of hell”, those gates will not be able to withstand the onslaught of Christian dominion!

Now, what is mentioned about the church’s teaching authority? Well, let’s go 2 verses later, and we will see. Christ actually limited their teaching authority! Verse 20 - Christ warned His disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ!

So what becomes of such fancies as “the church is guarded from error?” The only guard spoken of here is the “guard structures for hell” and they will collapse to the Christians onslaught.
Click to expand...
Jesus does not limit what they can teach as doctrine in verse 20. If that were true then why did they teach that Jesus was the Christ? That was only for the time being.
 
Reformed Rob:
Now, what is mentioned about the church’s teaching authority? Well, let’s go 2 verses later, and we will see. Christ actually limited their teaching authority! Verse 20 - Christ warned His disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ!
Click to expand...
To not tell anyone that Jesus is the Christ would be to cease evangelization. I highly doubt that that’s what Jesus wants. The Jews of Jesus’ time were expecting the Messiahto be a politician or government official who would save them from the Roman empire. If word got around that Jesus was the Messiah, He would have quite a bit of trouble trying to live out His ministry. This is why the apostles were not to tell anyone that Jesus was the Messiah. Then, after the work of Christ was complete, He said this to the apostles:

“19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Now doing all that would be rather difficult if the apostles couldn’t even tell anyone if Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus put a temporary limit on their teaching. He guided them. Now I’ll argue the Catholic view. God guided the apostles through His Son with this restriction so that His will could be done. Now God guides the apostles through His Holy Spirit, as promised. So what becomes of such fancies as “the church is guarded from error?” Matthew 16:20 i a fine example.
 
Oh my God!!! thank you for the insight. Imagine, 2,000 years of Catholic Theology down the tubes all from your own personal introspection. How can I believe St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp of Smyrna when we have you and your epiphany! C’mon now, you don’t think that Catholics have been through this rice paper thin arguement millions of times before. I am sorry that you think that most of the people who post here are the know-nothing, whishy-washy, pew warmers that make up 80% of most Catholic churches. We are here because most of us know and understand our faith, and accept the authority of the Magesterium of the Church along with Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, versus anyones own personal opinion on what they want scriptures to say. Sorry to sound so “Tertuliianesque”, but I have had my fill of pseudo-prophets coming here thinking they are gonna fix us of our Catholicism.
Reformed Rob:
Please understand, as a Protestant, I’m not here to bash Catholic doctrines, or argue just for the spite of arguing. I try to be cordial, but as Catholics here in the “Apologetics” arena, I see plenty of proof that you are anxious and capable of answering Protestant objections to your doctrines. So I present this challenge as cordially as possible, but I must word it strongly for it to seem real.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Catholic claim that is stated so erronously here, is that the Lord will not let his Church fall to false doctrines, for “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

I answer that,

“Gates” are defensive structures. The Lord is intending, and surely the Apostles, Peter especially, understood Christ to mean, that when the Church is on the offensive against tyranny in the world, and sin in individual’s lives, the power of Satan will succumb to the power and truth of the Gospel. Ultimately, the world will be predominately “Christianized”, and Isaiah 2 / Micah 4:1-3 will be fulfilled!

Nothing is spoken here about there being an “infallible” church magesterium that is guarded from doctrinal error in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the whole church! Actually, it’s just the contrary. Here the promise is to the fact that when the church is on the “offensive” against the “gates of hell”, those gates will not be able to withstand the onslaught of Christian dominion!

Now, what is mentioned about the church’s teaching authority? Well, let’s go 2 verses later, and we will see. Christ actually limited their teaching authority! Verse 20 - Christ warned His disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ!

So what becomes of such fancies as “the church is guarded from error?” The only guard spoken of here is the “guard structures for hell” and they will collapse to the Christians onslaught.
Click to expand...
 
Reformed Rob:
the power of Satan will succumb to the power and truth of the Gospel.

.
Click to expand...
The power of satan will succumb to the truth of the gospel and the fullness of that truth is in the Catholic Church. This is a promise from Jesus that he will not let the power of satan overtake his church and therefore it does have infallible truth. Don’t you believe that Jesus has the power to build one church and keep it from all error even when working through humans? It’s Jesus’ church, not ours. You are trying to tell all of us catholics that Jesus’ church is fallible and has fallen into error. No, I will always beleive that Jesus meant what he said and will always keep His church free from error.
 
I’m appalled that the Gates of Hell are misrepresented. I’m sure that this is covered under the Equal Opportunity Act. We all know that there’s a proper quota of:

55% Catholic
40% Non-Catholic
5% Minions of the Devil

How about standing up for the misrepresentation of that 5%. Can I get a second on that motion?!?

The Augustinian
 
"So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church. And the gates of the underworld can never hold out against it.(Mt 16:18)
“Gates” of course is an expression and doesn’t mean litteral gates. The footnote to the word “underworld” in the New Jerusalem Bible refers to this: “Greek: Hades; Hebrew: Sheol, the dwelling place of the dead, cf. Nb 16:33+. Here, its personified ‘gates’ suggest the powers of evil which first lead man into that death which is sin and then imprison him once for all in eternal death.
The Church’s task will be to rescue the elect from death’s dominion, from the death of the body and above all from eternal death, so that it may lead them into the kingdom of heaven, cf. Col 1:13; Co 15:26; Rv 6:8. In this the Church follows its Master who died, descended into the underworld, cf. 1 Ptr 3:19+, and rose again, Ac 2:27, 31.”
 
Is anything that God establishes really subject to corruption? Man may become corrupt, but the creations of God almighty (Adonai Elohiym) remain pure.
 
**General reminder:

Please remember charity in these discussions or the thread will have to be closed. Thanks for your cooperation.** 🙂
 
Rob,
You missed it.
You askd about the Church being guarded from doctrinal errors in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the whole church.
You begin with Matthere 16:18. Good.
Then you skip to Matthew 16:20 (More about that later)
You jumped right over your answer, which is Matthew 16:19, which I quote: “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Remember, Jesus is speaking to Peter. He not only gives him authority over who entere heaven (the keys), but he gives him the authority to determine, infallibly, doctrinal truth or error in the matter of faith and morals (binding and loosing) - Here’s the authority.
In Matthew 18:18, Jesus gives the same binding and loosing authority to the rest of the apostles.
Jesus just created the Magesterium.
As for Matthew 16:20, it was not uncommon for Jesus to tell people he healed not to reveal him, which they then immediately did. He did not want to be revealed as the Son of God until he was ready. It had nothing to do with the authority hed just given Peter.
God bless
 
Good job Strider… I was reading the posts and got to yours as my thoughts were also gathering on the keys.

MrShttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
Thanks, Rob for the most fun we can have on the forums, a thoughtful, concisely stated question, followed by a spirited debate and rebuttal by people who know there stuff. Socrates would be so proud of us. We can get a little over excited and overheated, but maybe that is part of the fun, since I cannot contribute, I will just thank you all again, reread the posts more carefully so I can learn from them.
 
Thank you for the replies!

Todd, I read those Scriptures you referenced from those sources. And I appreciate your explanation too, Strider, DanMan. Well, thanks everybody!

I have also considered that “gates” often refers to what we would think of as “Congress,” or at least where the city elders meet.
Examples:

Deut. 22:15 , 25:7
Prov. 14:19 , 24:7 , 31:23, 31
Psalm 69:12 , 127:5

So with that understanding, I would be inclined to understand that the “counsels of the wicked will not prevail against the truth in Christ’s Church.”

Honestly, after reading newadvent’s (Catholic Encyclopedia) article on “Infallibility” I have a pretty good understanding of it, and can see how beneficial, even necessary it may be. But I should stop there, or I’ll sound like a Catholic.

So thanks again for those comments. And the bit about verse 20, I put that in there, realizing it was completely irrational.

Also, Jeffreedy, yes, I’m familiar with the City of God. I’ve only read a little of it for “snippets” of the topics he addresses. Mentioning that was helpful.
 
Reformed Rob:
Honestly, after reading newadvent’s (Catholic Encyclopedia) article on “Infallibility” I have a pretty good understanding of it, and can see how beneficial, even necessary it may be. But I should stop there, or I’ll sound like a Catholic
Click to expand...
Not that there’s anything wrong with that!😃 Perhaps you’ll stop “sounding” Catholic and head towards “being” Catholic - most of us on this board can only pray and hope.

This has been an enjoyable thread to follow - the dialog taking place allows both sides to gain much.

Kris
 
40.png
Strider:
Rob,
You missed it.
You askd about the Church being guarded from doctrinal errors in matters of faith and morals pertaining to the whole church.
You begin with Matthere 16:18. Good.
Then you skip to Matthew 16:20 (More about that later)
You jumped right over your answer, which is Matthew 16:19, which I quote: “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Remember, Jesus is speaking to Peter. He not only gives him authority over who entere heaven (the keys), but he gives him the authority to determine, infallibly, doctrinal truth or error in the matter of faith and morals (binding and loosing) - Here’s the authority.
In Matthew 18:18, Jesus gives the same binding and loosing authority to the rest of the apostles.
Jesus just created the Magesterium.
As for Matthew 16:20, it was not uncommon for Jesus to tell people he healed not to reveal him, which they then immediately did. He did not want to be revealed as the Son of God until he was ready. It had nothing to do with the authority hed just given Peter.
God bless
Click to expand...
Very well stated Strider!

Clear, simple, short and straight to the point! 👍
 
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