The gates of hell won't prevail against it?

[Singinbeauty]

I find it disingenuous that someone who claims on their profile to be a Christian would argue that it’s a double standard to give God the glory when humans do godly things, yet blame human sinfulness when they do evil ones.

In your faith tradition do you give glory to human beings for doing holy things and blame God when we do evil ones?

I said nothing of giving God glory for good but not blaming HIM for bad.

WE as humans need to take a stand and responsibility (US not God) when it comes to those who proclaim Faith in Christ but do evil things. The world notices when we try to sweep them under the rug. I am talking about BOTH protestants and catholics. We can’t just take responsibility for the good that we do (as a whole) without addressing the evil that we do (as a whole - we are a community) and dealing with it.

 

[jay29]

SIA has a wicked plan. He’s trying to divert the attention of his fellow Anglicans who might be considering converting to Catholicism because of what’s going on at Lambeth by bringing up over and over and over this clerical sexual abuse thing.

He’ll soon find out he’ll be among those liberal Anglicans when the exodus of traditionalists is over.

THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST THE ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. PERIOD.

The guy doesn’t get it: If all the people in the Church FOLLOWED Catholic Teachings, no abuses would have happened! However, in his church, THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION, homosexual acts are condoned for the sake of “justice” at the cost of the Gospels and souls.

 

[Feedmysheep]

As long as it is good then it is the whole church, laymen and priests - nuns - pope alike,** but if it is vile like molestation or murder then it is individual. Isn’t that a double standard? Sure sounds like one.**

WE as humans need to take a stand and responsibility (US not God) when it comes to those who proclaim Faith in Christ but do evil things. The world notices when we try to sweep them under the rug. I am talking about BOTH protestants and catholics. We can’t just take responsibility for the good that we do (as a whole) without addressing the evil that we do (as a whole - we are a community) and dealing with it.

You are not even making a logical argument here. The first quote was your original, emphasis mine. You say it is a double standard when the Church (rightly) condemns the evil actions of the individual.
The second quote is where you claim that we need to do just this. Which is it? Are you blaming the Church for practicing a double standard by blaming the individual for these crimes, or are you saying we need to take more personal responsibility?

I’m not sure how much more “dealing with it” you’d like to see from the Church? The evil has been addressed, victims rightly given voice, what human reparation possible given, culprits punished in both secular and Church courts, and even the earthly head of the Church publicly apologizing for and railing against such a horror.

 

[hawkeye]

Oh my gosh, don’t make me laugh.

Your giving us the laughs cheers ! yours is a bit like accusing Jesus for the actions of Peter, Paul, Judas and the like, your twisted view of things is just that…TWISTED.

Go put your own house/s in order and then get back, people in glass-houses shouldn’t throw stones.

 

[jmcrae]

I think that the RCC should level with the people about everything. The facts about how much of the parishioners’ money has been spent on not just judgments but also legal fees, lawyer fees and such.

Parish financial records are public documents. You can request to see them at any time.

They should tell the truth about the priests and bishops that were moved to avoid indictment for their crimes.

These guys have all been “outed” and they are all one of three things: stripped of their duties, in jail, or dead.

The church should make a valiant and I mean an extrordinary effort to reach out to those devastaed by this travesty.

They have received millions of dollars in settlements. They are never going to have to work again, as long as they live.

They have received apology after apology from people who not only were never even involved, but who were and remain opposed to all manner of sin - every kind.

All because a sicko who happened to be dressed up like a Catholic priest showed them his private parts.

What more do they want?

Heck, I’ve been flashed, too, when I was young and impressionable - sick old men came after me wanting sex when I was a teenager, too - they just weren’t working at the time for wealthy religious organizations.

Where’s my million bucks? Who’s going to go public with an apology to me?

(I doubt it’ll ever happen. I guess I’m just going to have to suck it up and get on with my life, eh? )

 

[bpbasilphx]

- 107 Roman Catholic clergy members have been convicted of sexual crimes against children since the scandal has been uncovered.

**Out of how many RC Clergy in the world?

OTOH, at the last Baptist Church I was associated with, the Pastor was an adulterer (for which his wife divorced him) and the Minister of Music had a taste for teenage boys.

Yet Baptists claim to have all the truth, so there you go.**

 

[Feedmysheep]

- 107 Roman Catholic clergy members have been convicted of sexual crimes against children since the scandal has been uncovered.

**Out of how many RC Clergy in the world?

OTOH, at the last Baptist Church I was associated with, the Pastor was an adulterer (for which his wife divorced him) and the Minister of Music had a taste for teenage boys.

Yet Baptists claim to have all the truth, so there you go.**

It is also far more difficult for any accurate numbers to be reckoned regarding sexual abuse by Protestant clergy, due to the de-centralized, amorphous structures of Protestant ecclesiastical communities.

 

[angelusm]

Most media are in tha hands of people who hate the CC. As a result they inform a lot about sex abuses in the CC while much less or nothing about the same crimes in other religions, for example in judaism.
I’m not gonna justify anybody, people make mistakes sometimes. Just remember that every single person is a sinner and don’t expect others to be perfect. Forgive them what they’ve done and remeber Jesus’ words about priests: if they obey you, they obey me, if they don’t obey you they don’t obey me.
Don’t pay too much attention to anticatholic media, why don’t you read the Bible or the lives of saints instead? God bless.

 

[Singinbeauty]

You are not even making a logical argument here. The first quote was your original, emphasis mine. You say it is a double standard when the Church (rightly) condemns the evil actions of the individual.

What? My point was that it is a double standard that we (as a whole) take responsibility for the good but sweep the bad under the rug.

The second quote is where you claim that we need to do just this. Which is it? Are you blaming the Church for practicing a double standard by blaming the individual for these crimes, or are you saying we need to take more personal responsibility?

Not personal responsiblity, community responsibility. As a whole we accept responsiblity for the good that we do but when bad happens it is the individual.

I’m not sure how much more “dealing with it” you’d like to see from the Church? The evil has been addressed, victims rightly given voice, what human reparation possible given, culprits punished in both secular and Church courts, and even the earthly head of the Church publicly apologizing for and railing against such a horror.

Culprits, in some cases (a lot on both sides protestant and catholic) have been moved to another location rather than put through the courts. The money paid seems more like hush money and I acknowledge the pope apologizing but this was just recent. And while he is apologizing the rest of us are still saying individual. Those men (again, on both sides) should be punished and stripped of their titles and publically tried. Then given treatment. The laws are pretty clear, you do the deed and you get punished, but apparently that doesn’t apply to some of the upper clergy - we pay the victims and then silently move the offenders to another location that is not jail.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Most media are in tha hands of people who hate the CC. As a result they inform a lot about sex abuses in the CC while much less or nothing about the same crimes in other religions, for example in judaism.
I’m not gonna justify anybody, people make mistakes sometimes. Just remember that every single person is a sinner and don’t expect others to be perfect. Forgive them what they’ve done and remeber Jesus’ words about priests: if they obey you, they obey me, if they don’t obey you they don’t obey me.
Don’t pay too much attention to anticatholic media, why don’t you read the Bible or the lives of saints instead? God bless.

You have got to be kidding me… What these people have done is MORE than just a simple mistake. A mistake is oops, I put a dent in your car Dad. What these people have done is robbed these children of their childhood. They have affected these children in way that they will never be able to live the same again. These children have been violated, it is not a mistake - it is an ATROCITY. These ‘people’ should pay for what they did to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[RAR]

You have got to be kidding me… What these people have done is MORE than just a simple mistake. A mistake is oops, I put a dent in your car Dad. What these people have done is robbed these children of their childhood. They have affected these children in way that they will never be able to live the same again. These children have been violated, it is not a mistake - it is an ATROCITY. These ‘people’ should pay for what they did to the fullest extent of the law.

You’re right. I don’t think its possible to overstate what has happened to these children. I can’t even put into words how difficult I think it must be for them and the challenges they will face both interiorly and exteriorly for the rest of their lives.

I also wanto mention this… I’m a man and have spent many years as a coach. My father was a teacher. I have friends who are priests. Another heartbreaking side effect of this whole thing is that as a man, especially as one in authority and most especially priests, they will hence forward be severely disabled in their ability to show compassion and love. What a terrible thing for all those good men out there. I almost went to the seminary and the thought that I would always fear someone questioning my motive for hugging a child makes me want to cry.

There were a lot of losers in this thing.

RAR

 

[SPH1]

The Holy Catholic Church is “holy” because of Christ and the Holy Spirit; not because of the holiness of it’s members. I believe that SIA is advocating an ancient heresy (montanism?) that believed that the validity of the Sacraments/Church depended upon the sinlessness of the clergy.

Yes, the abuse scandal is/was bad. But the Catholic Church did seemingly take the brunt, due to: 1. long-standing anti-Catholicism and 2. seemingly fat dioceses, who made a lucrative target for plantiff’s lawyers. Much more financially attractive to go after some Catholic diocese rather than some single Protestant minister or small church group.

I also understand that not long ago many bishops were following the advise of the “shrinks” of the time, that the abusers could be cured. (IMO, the whole field of psychology is a “soft” science at best, just a step or two from witchcraft, but that’s another topic.)

 

[jmcrae]

The guy doesn’t get it: If all the people in the Church FOLLOWED Catholic Teachings, no abuses would have happened! However, in his church, THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION, homosexual acts are condoned for the sake of “justice” at the cost of the Gospels and souls.

Yes - they officially ordained a practicing homosexual, BECAUSE he was a practicing homosexual, in order to make the point that homosexuality - that is, the act of sodomy itself; not referring merely to a homosexual orientation - is not considered by them to be a sin.

This is completely different than what went on in the Catholic Church, where practicing homosexuals and sexual perverts were sneaking themselves into the priesthood (just as they do into coaching and teaching positions, and other positions that give them access to vulnerable persons), with nobody realizing what they were, and, after it was discovered, with Bishops who believed what they were told by supposed experts, that these guys were cured after a certain amount of counselling, and that they could go back to their active duties.

I do not believe that the Bishops were at fault when they believed what they were told - they moved the priests around because they thought they had been cured, and that they would not reoffend. Bishops are not mental health practitioners - they have to trust what they are told by experts, just like the rest of us. Most of them do not have the ability to read minds - so I don’t really know why they are being blamed for the crisis.

The people at fault are those who actually did the awful things that were done. They were acting against Church policy when they did so. They were not acting on behalf of the Church at the time that they did these things. To put it into perspective, if the person you share your office with does something illegal, that is against company policy, and he gets arrested, should you be sued by the victims, just because you happen to have money, and the guilty party happens to be broke? Just because you happen to work in the same office together?

 

[hawkeye]

Most media are in tha hands of people who hate the CC.

Yes some are working for their father, and that would be satan, the father of lies.

 

[jmcrae]

You have got to be kidding me… What these people have done is MORE than just a simple mistake. A mistake is oops, I put a dent in your car Dad. What these people have done is robbed these children of their childhood. They have affected these children in way that they will never be able to live the same again. These children have been violated, it is not a mistake - it is an ATROCITY. These ‘people’ should pay for what they did to the fullest extent of the law.

They have done, and continue to do so.

If you know of someone who is doing this, and has not yet been caught, report him to the police.

 

[thecoach]

If the Church had proclaimed the innocence of the predators, or had declared doctrine to the effect that the sexual molestation of children and young adults was acceptable, then the gates of Hell would have prevailed against the Church.

That isn’t what happened.

There are, sadly, many members of the Church who practice things clearly against Church teachings. That doesn’t mean Hell has prevailed against the CHURCH, but rather against those individuals’ souls.

Compare it to, say, democracy. Just because many people have done terrible things while operating under it doesn’t render the system a failure.

They declared “innocence” by turning a blind eye and re-assigning predators.

 

[Feedmysheep]

They declared “innocence” by turning a blind eye and re-assigning predators.

And you are privy to the entire thought process that went on? You know for absolute certain that they weren’t, as other posters have mentioned, assured by members of the field of psychology that the predators were rehabilitated and no longer a danger?

What an amazing wealth of knowledge you have about the situation. Perhaps you are one of those bishops, posting under the title of “persecuted non-Catholic”?

Really, you’re going to have to provide more than a hit-and-run, unsupported pot shot to actually contribute to the debate.

 

[1stChristian]

Pope benedict XVI has apologized on many occasions for the horrible sex abuse that clergy in the Roman Catholic Church have been guilty of against children. How sincere is he really? Maybe the pope is very sincere or maybe he has simply realized that the monster that the RCC created just can’t be compacted any further than the most effort filled attempts by the RCC have proven. Many Catholics blame the media for (blowing it all out of shape) as they call and yet some Catholics believe that the crimes that took place are haneous and horrible. Here are some simple undeniable facts about the scandal.

• 107 Roman Catholic clergy members have been convicted of sexual crimes against children since the scandal has been uncovered.
• Over $2 billion has been paid out by the RCC in lawsuits
  to victims of the sexual abuse scandal.
• For decades, many of these clergy members have been moved to other diocese, moved to other countries and put into other positions to avoid responsibility for their crimes.

I would like to believe that Pope Benedict XVI has come to the prayerful conclusion that the scandal has devastated so very many and the RCC as well. I will say that I believe that he is doing the right thing because I believe that this is the only way that the RCC can truly move forward.

What about the horrible sex abuse in other churches?
Do these ministers apologize for their sins committed? NO!
Furthermore, the Catholic church still has the LOWEST molestation rate from the “other” denominations. www.reformation.com.

 

[thecoach]

And you are privy to the entire thought process that went on? You know for absolute certain that they weren’t, as other posters have mentioned, assured by members of the field of psychology that the predators were rehabilitated and no longer a danger?

What an amazing wealth of knowledge you have about the situation. Perhaps you are one of those bishops, posting under the title of “persecuted non-Catholic”?

Really, you’re going to have to provide more than a hit-and-run, unsupported pot shot to actually contribute to the debate.

I sure know what they aftermath and what church admissions have been.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Wouldn’t matter if he did backward flips while kissing their feet, many still would reject his sincerity.

And no, “the gates of hell shall not prevail.”

You’ve seen this list ?

And what’s sad is…over 800 cases combined between those protestant groups doesn’t even come close to the amount of cases in the Roman Catholic Church…