The gates of hell?

[Logan]

When Jesus said “… and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the church).” What exactly did he mean? I know the Church can be and has been attacked many times, and that the gates of hell will NOT win. How much damage can the gates of hell do to the Church though? I hear people speak of a great apostasy. Wouldn’t that be considered the gates of hell prevailing (at least in the short term)?

 

[tobinatorstark]

That Satan and evil will not destroy the Church. No matter splits come from the Church, the Church will remain in the body of Christ. That is what I got out of it. Anyone else care to elaborate or correct me.

 

[rskempf]

I believe Jesus was giving us hope in this statement. If we are true to the one Church he established, we will find ourselves on the right and winning side in the end. Good news! However, before we finish our time on earth, a brief moment compared to eternity, we will see and experience persecution. The message is hold fast to the faith and try to help a few others to see the light. You may yield 30, 60, or a hundred fold before it is over.

 

[tito]

Logan: What this passage seems to be saying in Matt16:18 is that the gates of hell shall not stand against or be able to witstand the offensive charge of the Church against its gates. Jesus had just given Peter the power of the keys and the salvation of individuals as he preached the gospel of the kingdom. Spiritual power therfore bestowed on the Church is more powerful than demonic forces. In our evangelism endeavors we are charging against hells gates.

 

[DaveBj]

Logan: What this passage seems to be saying in Matt16:18 is that the gates of hell shall not stand against or be able to witstand the offensive charge of the Church against its gates. Jesus had just given Peter the power of the keys and the salvation of individuals as he preached the gospel of the kingdom. Spiritual power therfore bestowed on the Church is more powerful than demonic forces. In our evangelism endeavors we are charging against hells gates.

To put a little background on this, a city’s gates were part of its wall; in other words, the gates were part of its defenses. For Jesus to say that the gates of Hell (actually, Hades) would not be able to prevail against the Church seems to me to mean that the Church was to attack Hades, and that Hades would not be able to withstand the attack.

Hmm. Either Jesus was wrong (not likely, in my book), or the Church isn’t doing a very good job of attacking.

DaveBj

 

[colliric]

To put a little background on this, a city’s gates were part of its wall; in other words, the gates were part of its defenses. For Jesus to say that the gates of Hell (actually, Hades) would not be able to prevail against the Church seems to me to mean that the Church was to attack Hades, and that Hades would not be able to withstand the attack.
**
Hmm. Either Jesus was wrong (not likely, in my book), or the Church isn’t doing a very good job of attacking.**

DaveBj

I disagree, the Church’s sucessfull attacks on issues such as “Pro-Life” pertains to it’s Logical moral success(Infallibility) and therefore it’s ability to stand the test of time and hold out on it’s Opposition… Not to the full sucess in it’s conversion minestry.

Sometimes in order to overcome opposition you simply need to outlast them and let them exaust themselves trying to find weakness in your superior defences, then when the moment is right… Bang, you hit them with full force… This is exactly what happened at the battle of Waterloo and twice in Russia during WW2 and Napoleon himself.

This is what Christ seems to be telling peter, that the Church will outlast because we are the ones fighting for what is logically morally right in all ways shapes and forms.

What Jesus seems to be saying to me is, Hell will never destroy the church and the church will always logically prevail in any arguement or fight on Moral Grounds. It will stand the test of time, he is indicating and will NEVER EVER fall to the illogiccality of immorality, even though some members will. Jesus is telling us “you will outlast the enemy”…

 

[vz71]

Based on the Gospel reading today, I’m not even certain ‘hell’ is really what is being discussed.

Our Gospel reading today rendered it as "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. "

When did ‘hell’ disappear in favor of a simple place for the dead?

 

[colliric]

Based on the Gospel reading today, I’m not even certain ‘hell’ is really what is being discussed.

Our Gospel reading today rendered it as "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. "

When did ‘hell’ disappear in favor of a simple place for the dead?

They are actually referring to the same place, so either translation is fine. The “hell” translation is based on the Latin Vulgate’s rendering of “Inferi”(The Inferno):

“16:18 et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae **inferi **non praevalebunt adversum eam”

This was the traditional form of Translation because of St Jerome’s Latin rendering which exerted a huge influence right up to the end of the 19th century.

“Hades” was the word used in the original Greek, It means “the place of the dead”, “the underworld” and can also mean “Hell”. It is only in modern translations that “Underworld” or “Place of the dead” is used because they simply do not consider the Vulgate rendering compleatly authorative.

It is not the original Greek, which uses “Hades”, but is how Jerome translated “Hades” into Latin, so that opinion is fine to have for modern biblical translators looking to translate the original languages. But actually all three translations are fairly correct and have pros and cons.

It is “Hell”, the “underworld” and “the place of the dead”… they are all the same place and the spirit of the passage does not change no matter which translation is used.

 

[vz71]

Fair enough.

But it seems to me that if the church wants to lay claim that the passage refers to Satan and his dominion, then they need to stick with the word ‘hell’ in the passage.

The netherworld does not at all imply what the word hell does, and the belief that the passage refers to Satan in any way would make little contextual sense if the netherworld is placed there.

 

[colliric]

Fair enough.

But it seems to me that if the church wants to lay claim that the passage refers to Satan and his dominion, then they need to stick with the word ‘hell’ in the passage.

The netherworld does not at all imply what the word hell does, and the belief that the passage refers to Satan in any way would make little contextual sense if the netherworld is placed there.

I agree here, actually. But that is my preference of translation. I think it best gets across what Jesus was saying and Saint Jerome was on the ball so to speak. But there is at least 3 valid translations of the original.

 

[Benadam]

The Gospel writer John used the image of a door to signify the entrance of eternity into time and human experience. Christ is the door. On the other hand their are a few doors opened in front of certain christians. They are spiritual realities that manifest physically through human action.

A door was opened in front of Simon Peter that no one can close and the keys of which he possesses by divine authority. That door can be described as a gate considering that through it the Son was revealed to humanity on earth by our Father in heaven.

Ineviteably the evil spirit seemingly sweeps through the door as well. St Peter was immediately deceived about the experience of the Father’s union with him. Jesus sternly corrected him and at the same time indicated what was behind the obstruction to the divine will. St Peter assumed his proper place thereafter. It was only St Peter Satan wished to sift and St Peter who Jesus made known He was asking the Father to support…

.

I see St Peter’s experience of Good and evil as the origin and archetype of the gates of hell / gates of heaven symbology.

Vatican II can be viewed as duplicating the pattern.