The general problem discussing morality

[Wozza]

In 2001 she founded www.catholictherapists.com in response to a growing demand for counseling that is faithful to the Magisterium and includes prayer and spirituality.

Why are you telling me that we should listen to psychiatrists regarding church matters?

 

[Wozza]

You’re constraining the law to the letter in a rigid way.
The law serves love, takes it’s meaning and purpose from love. Christ fulfills the law and gives it a heart of flesh.

You must know that we do not condone abusive parents and the law does not condone that in any way, nor do we honor abusive parents. And you must also know that the commandment is not rigid in that way but rather serves the higher purpose of love in whatever circumstances the person is living. Can you look a little deeper then?

The moral law is not for constriction and enslavement, it opens the way to freedom.
Just as a stop sign might make me late for work, and at the same time contributes to the larger purpose of order and freedom of movement. Kinda like that…

That’s pretty much my point, goout. It is so wooly a commandment. ‘Honour you parents’. Well, unless they don’t deserve it. It’s like ‘Do not kill’. Well, unless it’s justified. ‘Keep the Sabbath holy’. Well, if you’re Christian that is.

The commandments were claimed to be able to be used as a basis for a moral code. They aren’t. At least as they are written. They’re overly simplistic. They need to be interpreted. In most cases they only apply to Christians. They are not suitable.

 

[goout]

The commandments were claimed to be able to be used as a basis for a moral code. They aren’t. At least as they are written. They’re overly simplistic. They need to be interpreted. In most cases they only apply to Christians. They are not suitable.

They are simplistic and rigid because you read them that way.
The commandment points to the full sacredness of family and social bonds. This doesn’t mean that everyone possesses these right relations in their specific family or in social relationships, and it doesn’t mean that we pretend that we have something we don’t. The commandment points to recognizing and working towards objective values.

2199 The fourth commandment is addressed expressly to children in their relationship to their father and mother, because this relationship is the most universal. It likewise concerns the ties of kinship between members of the extended family. It requires honor, affection, and gratitude toward elders and ancestors. Finally, it extends to the duties of pupils to teachers, employees to employers, subordinates to leaders, citizens to their country, and to those who administer or govern it.

This commandment includes and presupposes the duties of parents, instructors, teachers, leaders, magistrates, those who govern, all who exercise authority over others or over a community of persons.

[2223] Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues . This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the "material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones."31 Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a4.htm

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

The commandments were claimed to be able to be used as a basis for a moral code. They aren’t. At least as they are written. They’re overly simplistic. They need to be interpreted. In most cases they only apply to Christians. They are not suitable.

They are simplistic and rigid because you read them that way.

You’re not reading what I’m writing. I said that they are wooly. Which is just about the opposite of rigid.

Yes, they can be read just as they are written. And I’m sure a few fundamentalists do that. But the point I am making is that they really say nothing. Honour your parents…unless they don’t deserve it. Really? That’s meant to be a deep and meaningfull basis for morality? Good grief, a ten year old could offer something less morally vacuuous.

And most of the commandments don’t apply to me in any case. No more than any Hindu versions might. And we are looking not for a specifically Christian morality but a universal one.

The commandments fail on that.

 

[goout]

goout:

Wozza:

The commandments were claimed to be able to be used as a basis for a moral code. They aren’t. At least as they are written. They’re overly simplistic. They need to be interpreted. In most cases they only apply to Christians. They are not suitable.

They are simplistic and rigid because you read them that way.

You’re not reading what I’m writing.

No of course not. :crazy_face:

Do you know how many times you’ve used that lament in your posts here?
You must be the most misunderstood person on the planet.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

goout:

Wozza:

The commandments were claimed to be able to be used as a basis for a moral code. They aren’t. At least as they are written. They’re overly simplistic. They need to be interpreted. In most cases they only apply to Christians. They are not suitable.

They are simplistic and rigid because you read them that way.

You’re not reading what I’m writing.

No of course not. :crazy_face:

Do you know how many times you’ve used that lament in your posts here?
You must be the most misunderstood person on the planet.

It feels that way sometimes…

 

[John10]

Because she is not just one more mental health counselor. She has actually incorporated The Catholic Church Magisterium in her practice, along with prayers and spirituality.

I guess she also recognized the great value of our Catholic Church teachings which can be applied to various areas of our life and even our jobs.

 

[Wozza]

Because she is not just one more mental health counselor. She has actually incorporated The Catholic Church Magisterium in her practice, along with prayers and spirituality.

I guess she also recognized the great value of our Catholic Church teachings which can be applied to various areas of our life and even our jobs.

But you would have noted the many ‘coulds’ and ‘perhaps’ and ‘maybes’ in her piece. Hardly solid guidance. Which anyway is missing the point.

 

[John10]

But you would have noted the many ‘coulds’ and ‘perhaps’ and ‘maybes’ in her piece. Hardly solid guidance.

Naturally we need to have as much information as possible to provide the best guidance, however she is basing her counselling on Catholic Teachings, so she is recognizing the great value that it has and the solid moral grounds on which it stands.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Do you think that Joseph Fritzel should be honoured by his daughter? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

Fritzel broke civil law and Biblical law, kidnaping and rape are wrong.

All the commandments need to be interpreted.

They should be interpreted in a way that is just and fair to all people, so if you are to interpret the law, you should search for a greatest good interpretation.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

But you would have noted the many ‘coulds’ and ‘perhaps’ and ‘maybes’ in her piece. Hardly solid guidance.

Naturally we need to have as much information as possible to provide the best guidance, however she is basing her counselling on Catholic Teachings, so she is recognizing the great value that it has and the solid moral grounds on which it stands.

Take out the specific references to Catholic teaching and replace it with another religion and it wouldn’t change anything whatsoever that she said. You really need to come to terms with that.

 

[John10]

Take out the specific references to Catholic teaching and replace it with another religion and it wouldn’t change anything whatsoever that she said

I have my doubts because at the heart of Catholicism is not just a moral system (which is still needed) but a person: Jesus.

Also I am unsure if other religions do have a specific commandment or tenant such as we have in Catholicism in regard to our parents.

She also points out in the article:

" Talking out your situation with a therapist familiar with family dynamics can be very helpful. Choosing a Catholic therapist who shares your values is an essential consideration in such a case."

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Take out the specific references to Catholic teaching and replace it with another religion and it wouldn’t change anything whatsoever that she said

I have my doubts because at the heart of Catholicism is not just a moral system (which is still needed) but a person: Jesus.

Also I am unsure if other religions do have a specific commandment or tenant such as we have in Catholicism in regard to our parents.

If they did, why would it be any different?

You HAVE to get away from the idea that all Catholic teachings are unique. They are not.

Edit: this is pretty much the sum total of the advice she gave.

First , what is your current state in life? If you’re married, your first obligation is to your spouse. If you are a parent, the kids fall in next. If you’re a single adult, it may not be clear what your obligations are to your parents as quite often the married siblings expect a lot of you in that regard. Remember, you do have an obligation to yourself too and it’s okay to set boundaries, especially with a demanding parent.

Next , what is your parent’s state in life? Are they married, divorced, or widowed? Are they in good health or bad? Do they truly need help or do they tend to manipulate you with guilt until they get their way? This is often the case with alcoholic parents and sometimes with widowed and divorced parents. In those cases, roles and boundaries are often blurred and it’s hard to recognize what’s expected of us. The “norm” for you, may be far from normal. Talking out your situation with a therapist familiar with family dynamics can be very helpfull. Always remember, the essence of any healthy relationship is that each party respects the freedom of the other.

Hardly specific Catholic teaching. That could be from any religion on the planet. In fact, it is pretty much secular advice. It is available for anyone.

 

[John10]

Well, I think now you are starting to use the if’s

 

[Wozza]

I’m not making a statement based on an ‘if’. It’s a question. The question still stands for you to answer.

If another religion had a similar commandment, would it be any different?

I’ll tell you something for nothing. In the Far East, respect for your elders is paramount. I sincerely doubt if a similar religious commandment in that part of the world would be needed. It’s almost genetic. It would be like a commandment to ‘love your children’.

But then again, that would depend as well.

 

[John10]

If another religion had a similar commandment, would it be any different?

Yes because again Catholicism is more that just a moral system, it’s ultimate goal is Christ, that cannot be said of the other religions. Also respect is different than love, I might respect someone because I have to or out of fear, but not necessarily love them.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

If another religion had a similar commandment, would it be any different?

Yes because again Catholicism is more that just a moral system, it’s ultimate goal is Christ, that cannot be said of the other religions.

I’ll tell you what. I’ll give you a moral ideal - one that we should all live by. And you can tell me if it’s Catholic or not. In fact, you can tell me if it’s Christian or not. No - hang on. You can tell me if it’s even religious or not. Sound reasonable?

As if you could do that…

All religions have the same story to tell. Do good and you will get rewarded. Be kind to mum and dad, love the guy next door, don’t think just of yourself, avoid jealousy and hate, be truthful…need I go on?

 

[John10]

All religions have the same story to tell. Do good and you will get rewarded. Be kind to mum and dad, love the guy next door, don’t think just of yourself, avoid jealousy and hate, be truthful…need I go on?

“Okay, so theism—the belief that there is a God who created the universe—and pantheism—the view that God is the universe—cannot both be true. This is one example of why you can’t rationally affirm that all religions are equally true. The law of noncontradiction forbids it. This does not mean that there cannot be elements of truth in all religions but that all are not equally true. I believe that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of the truth and other religions are wrong inasmuch as they disagree with that fullness".

 

[Eric_Hyom]

All religions have the same story to tell. Do good and you will get rewarded. Be kind to mum and dad, love the guy next door, don’t think just of yourself, avoid jealousy and hate, be truthful…need I go on?

It seems that God and religion have a good moral code.

 

[Wozza]

I believe that (insert religion here) possesses the fullness of the truth and other religions are wrong inasmuch as they disagree with that fullness".

See what I mean?