The Generational Divide

[gcshapero]

That’s actually really interesting. Makes me think about those between years.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

gcshapero:

Retro-chic – expand on that.

Retro-chic are young people who do old-fashioned things out of a sense of style more than substance, like smoking a pipe or wearing a bowtie. The have no interest in learning about the context in which these things were used, just in doing something do be different. They quickly lose interest in whatever they pick up.

I wouldn’t say they lose interest. I would say it winds up being a source of entertainment. Just look at “Dapper Day” at Disney. It sells out in minutes. However, if you click on any of the users on Instagram being “dapper” is not a lifestyle choice, but something to do.

 

[Ann_Stanton]

The generational divide is not the issue. Enjoying and serving the Lord is what matters.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

That’s actually really interesting. Makes me think about those between years.

I think it really depends on when a good youth program was introduced and the general population. The Lifeteen group I went to is still going strong, it started before I attended and it’s been going for about 20 years now. But the children of the first “class” of lifeteen don’t see to really want to attend. Some do things like DTS, some are peer leaders, some attend TLM some make their own small groups. But the group itself is still flourishing because there are always tons of teens who are being raised CINO who can drive their parents batty by attending Mass weekly.

 

[AndrewAxland]

Most lose interest quickly, but a few stick with it like those anachronistic people who hang out at renaissance faires and make a sort of lifestyle out of it, which is ok. But few take the time and trouble to actually learn anything about the renaissance. My boys have a couple of friends who are into that, and I was at first disappointed that they were not much into the history as into just having a good time. But that’s OK with me. (I actually have gone to a couple of renaissance faires with them and my boys, and although they are silly as all hell, they are actually good clean fun).

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Most lose interest quickly, but a few stick with it like those anachronistic people who hang out at renaissance faires and make a sort of lifestyle out of it, which is ok. But few take the time and trouble to actually learn anything about the renaissance. My boys have a couple of friends who are into that, and I was at first disappointed that they were not much into the history as into just having a good time. But that’s OK with me. (I actually have gone to a couple of renaissance faires with them and my boys, and although they are silly as all hell, they are actually good clean fun).

I think we’re talking at the same point. Mine was just that they might not completely lose interest in the activity or expression and may carry on the initial passion by a yearly foray into whatever it was–be it Dapper day, Ren Fair or the like. It seems to me that TLM often winds up being this way.

 

[AndrewAxland]

Oh, I have to add that going to any mass, OF or EF, for one’s amusement does make me squeamish. Curiosity, I understand, but the liturgy is not for entertainment purposes.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Oh, I have to add that going to any mass, OF or EF, for one’s amusement does make me squeamish. Curiosity, I understand, but the liturgy is not for entertainment purposes.

I wouldn’t call the very rare seeking out of the TLM after the passion has died down entertainment exactly…more like a runner’s high?

 

[gcshapero]

Oh, I have to add that going to any mass, OF or EF, for one’s amusement does make me squeamish. Curiosity, I understand, but the liturgy is not for entertainment purposes.

I agree that liturgy is not for entertainment. It can be cringey when people see it as such.

Hearing your thoughts on young people and orthodoxy, what are your thoughts on Boomers and modernism?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Hearing your thoughts on young people and orthodoxy, what are your thoughts on Boomers and modernism?

I know you didn’t ask me this…but I think that Boomers, in general, have a “it’s not our fault, deal with it, we’ll keep doing what we are doing because it’s worked so far” attitude. I know that my parents, aunts and uncles, and students in that generation seem to have about just about everything.

Gen X tends to be a both a bit more combative and, ironically, apathetic.

 

[gcshapero]

I wouldn’t call the very rare seeking out of the TLM after the passion has died down entertainment exactly…more like a runner’s high?

I certainly can’t speak for everyone, but my experience personally or those who I’ve gotten to know found more so joy in TLM as well as an element of sorrow that hasn’t been as visible in other ways for them.

My best friend, a young guy from Franciscan, has said how much he struggles with TLM and it seems to serve more distracting for him than an ability to prayerfully calm, though he has expressed seriousness in other elements of traditionalism that has been someone lost or at least not smiled upon by his parents.

So this isn’t entirely about TLM (though it can include it). It could even be in regards to things like social issues like the roles of husband and wife, the necessity of regular confession, etc.

 

[AndrewAxland]

It can be cringey when people see it as such.

Another thing that makes me cringe a little is when converts go in for the TLM. There’s often an sense of cultural appropriation going on, like wiggers or palefaces dancing around at a pow-wow. I can better understand how some cradle Catholics feel nostalgic for the ways of their youth, but that was actually part of their personal cultural history.

“Modernism” is a term thrown around by Trads to signify anything they just don’t like.

 

[gcshapero]

Another thing that makes me cringe a little is when converts go in for the TLM. There’s often an sense of cultural appropriation going on, like wiggers or palefaces dancing around at a pow-wow. I can better understand how some cradle Catholics feel nostalgic for the ways of their youth, but that was actually part of their personal cultural history.

Are you OK?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

gcshapero:

It can be cringey when people see it as such.

Another thing that makes me cringe a little is when converts go in for the TLM. There’s often an sense of cultural appropriation going on, like wiggers or palefaces dancing around at a pow-wow. I can better understand how some cradle Catholics feel nostalgic for the ways of their youth, but that was actually part of their personal cultural history.

“Modernism” is a term thrown around by Trads to signify anything they just don’t like.

I get that. I love ASL and grew up around ASL. But the dioceses is fairly protective of publishing the times when Mass is said in ASL (not just translated) for that reason alone. They do not want to usurp a different culture.

 

[AndrewAxland]

They do not want to usurp a different culture.

Here’s a better analogy. I’m Polish American. I speak Polish, and have even lived twelve years in Poland myself, teaching anthropology at a Polish university.

If I had a non-Polish guest in my house who tried to show off his extremely limited knowledge of Poland by trying to “act Polish”, I would feel a little weird. Like saying “You eat potato pancakes with sour cream? The AUTHENTIC POLISH way to eat them is with apple sauce!” That’s what I mean by cultural appropriation.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

They do not want to usurp a different culture.

Here’s a better analogy. I’m Polish American. I speak Polish, and have even lived twelve years in Poland myself, teaching anthropology at a Polish university.

If I had a non-Polish guest in my house who tried to show off his extremely limited knowledge of Poland by trying to “act Polish”, I would feel a little weird. Like saying “You eat potato pancakes with sour cream? The AUTHENTIC POLISH way to eat them is with apple sauce!” That’s what I mean by cultural appropriation.

ASL is a different language with it’s own culture…so yeah, there’s no difference.

 

[JanetF]

I’m a boomer and I’m thrilled that the Latin mass is becoming more popular and proud that my daughter veils even though I do not and I do not attend Tridentine mass. Those at the end of the baby boom probably don’t even remember the Latin mass that well, which could be why they are hesitant to re-embrace it. I was born in 1964, a month before the official end of the baby boom, so I don’t remember attending Latin mass as a child.

I would agree with your priest’s take, and I would take it one step further, some members of my generation don’t want to be told by the younger generation that they are wrong, or that another way is better, more reverent, etc. Especially when in fact both forms of the mass are quite reverent and indeed both are licit.

We don’t like the young whipper snappers telling us we are wrong. It’s insulting. But that’s just my $.02

 

[AndrewAxland]

Agree. Newcomers and outsiders often don’t catch on the there is a whole culture here with a long, long history, and that things that may seem one way to them come with a lot of historical and psychological baggage for the “natives”.

This is not to knock converts, by any means. Even those who have a sincere interest in our history and culture. Let them have at it, as long as they are willing to learn all about it in depth.

 

[gcshapero]

some members of my generation don’t want to be told by the younger generation that they are wrong, or that another way is better, more reverent, etc. Especially when in fact both forms of the mass are quite reverent and indeed both are licit.

We don’t like the young whipper snappers telling us we are wrong. It’s insulting. But that’s just my $.02

That certainly makes sense. “Who do you think you are, kid? I’ve been Catholic longer than you’ve been alive. Don’t tell me I’m wrong.”

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Agree. Newcomers and outsiders often don’t catch on the there is a whole culture here with a long, long history, and that things that may seem one way to them come with a lot of historical and psychological baggage for the “natives”.

This is not to knock converts, by any means. Even those who have a sincere interest in our history and culture. Let them have at it, as long as they are willing to learn all about it in depth.

I think those in the Deaf Community would totally agree with you on that. Many feel very frustratd by the “I taught my kid baby sign so I can totally use ASL” crowd.