The Gift that keeps on taking

[ryanoneil]

I am curious since the translations we are using seem to be different. Is there the distinction between LORD and Lord in your version? I ask this before answering with my own thoughts here for purpose.

There is no distinction in (1 Sam 12:12-15). The LORD is God. Of course there is a strong sense that an earthly monarch contradicts God’s sovereignty over Israel, and the people are seen as rejecting the kingship of God.

I will be honest with here. I am sure that Ezekiel’s idea of the temple has a lot to do with the Exodus 39, which may be more than what we are seeing … only God knows for sure … all we can do is seek Him for our own guidance in all of this … and then, verses 42-43 I personally find comforting.

I think 1 King 6 is concerned with Ex 39 also, and Ezekiel is looking forward to the building of the second Temple. Most Christians see a parallel with Jesus saying the New Temple would be built of living stones (in relation to the destruction of the Second Temple).

You spoke of the new creation and its aspects as related to what the prophets were saying. That is what came to me. shrugs Wisdom … that is what entails your own personal understanding of the New Creation. The New Creation is not physical … for us personally, being finite, it is Wisdom … so as to evolve in our understanding and then, plant the seeds for those who come after us.

I’ve already agreed with you concerning these spiritual aspect of the new creation. It is not limited to only one understanding for us Christians though.

Awesome! I don’t have much knowledge of the pope now, but I did find a lot of things about the last Pope that seemed to be genuine intent toward God and His People.

Micah 4:4-7 had great meaning to me in that time … and maybe still … that you can worship your gods whilst I worship my God, the God of Israel, blessed be He, now.

From my perspective, we worship the same God. No form was viewed in Deut 4, but the “Word” was heard. At the LORD’s appointed time, that same “Word” appeared in the form of Jesus Christ. I know you don’t see it that way, but we do.

 

[simplynoone]

Please tell me if I’m hearing you correctly. You are saying Christians are guilty of making Jesus an idol. If so, I can only say the Israelites were forbidden to make images of God because he didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.” We Christians believe that just as God appeared in fire he later appeared in Jesus who is the “image” of the invisible God.

Isaiah 45:14-18 God reveals Himself through Israel … not one man. For Him to reveal Himself through only ONE man is impossible. He is infinite in knowledge and understanding … that is according to the Tanakh.

 

[simplynoone]

Absolutely not! The hireling’s are the shepherds of Israel who were denounced by the prophets as worthless and evil.

Jesus left. Let’s, for fun, say that you are right and Jesus is risen. Where is he? Don’t you ever get curious why it is he is staying away meanwhile all the suffering is going on? I mean, if we are going to view this from the Catholic perspective, than Jesus is given of an unjust God … his suffering, indeed, was horrific, but I can start pointing out the millions who have suffered MUCH worse, even innocent children, who were not raised back up from the grave. And all whilst this is happening, where is Jesus?

Woe to the shepherds who mislead and scatter the flock of my pasture, says the LORD. Therefore, thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, against the shepherds who shepherd my people: You have scattered my sheep and driven them away. You have not cared for them, but I will take care to punish your evil deeds. (Jer 23:1-2)

Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, in these words prophesy to them (to the shepherds): Thus says the Lord GOD: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who have been pasturing themselves! Should not shepherds, rather, pasture sheep? (Ezek 34:2)

Woe to my foolish shepherd who forsakes the flock! May the sword fall upon his arm and upon his right eye; Let his arm wither away entirely, and his right eye be blind forever! (Zech 11:17)

Jesus said “I am the good shepherd. A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” (Jn 10:11) He is the Davidic Messiah the LORD exercised his rule through.

as I said … where is Jesus?

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will raise up a righteous shoot to David; As king he shall reign and govern wisely, he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, Israel shall dwell in security. This is the name they give him: “The LORD our justice.” (Jer 23:5-6)

I will appoint one shepherd over them to pasture them, my servant David; he shall pasture them and be their shepherd. I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezek 34:23-24)

Wasn’t Jesus. David, by the way, said GOD was His Shepherd. Maybe that is the problem here? People are using men to shepherd them and disregarding the Voice of God? (that would be the same as cause and effect).

 

[ryanoneil]

Isaiah 45:14-18 God reveals Himself through Israel … not one man. For Him to reveal Himself through only ONE man is impossible. He is infinite in knowledge and understanding … that is according to the Tanakh.

I don’t disagree that God reveals Himself through Israel, but Isaiah 45:14 is refering to Cyrus who is a Persian. With God all things are possible.

 

[ryanoneil]

Jesus left. Let’s, for fun, say that you are right and Jesus is risen. Where is he?

After His resurrection he ascended to heaven.

**As he blessed them he parted from them and was taken up to heaven. (Luke 24:51)

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. (Dan 7:13)**

He is also present in the Eucharist (the bread that came down from heaven). Read John 6. and

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20)

And inturn, he is present in us.

Don’t you ever get curious why it is he is staying away meanwhile all the suffering is going on? I mean, if we are going to view this from the Catholic perspective, than Jesus is given of an unjust God … his suffering, indeed, was horrific, but I can start pointing out the millions who have suffered MUCH worse, even innocent children, who were not raised back up from the grave. And all whilst this is happening, where is Jesus?

I don’t believe he is staying away. He is here. If you mean coming down from heaven in glory, yes sometimes I wonder.

I would ask you the same question about the promises given to Israel by the prophets, especially the utopian ones?

Catholics believe that Jesus opened the way for us to the heavenly Jerusalem. After death, God’s good and faithful servants live there with Him. This is the first resurrection from death to eternal life. As God’s Kingdom continues to grow on earth (amidst the pain and suffering of life), so does the heavenly Jerusalem. We believe the physical (second) resurrection will occur at the end of time when the heavenly Jerusalem comes to earth and God dwells with his people. That is the ultimate new creation of God when the old heaven’s and earth pass away the new heaven’s and earth are utopian.

Wasn’t Jesus. David, by the way, said GOD was His Shepherd. Maybe that is the problem here? People are using men to shepherd them and disregarding the Voice of God? (that would be the same as cause and effect).

But this is the voice of God.

**Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will raise up a righteous shoot to David; As king he shall reign and govern wisely, he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, Israel shall dwell in security. This is the name they give him: “The LORD our justice.” (Jer 23:5-6)

I will appoint one shepherd over them to pasture them, my servant David; he shall pasture them and be their shepherd. I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezek 34:23-24)**

You don’t believe this speaks to Jesus, which is your perogative. I do. Whatever person this refers to, doesn’t change the fact of what God said through the prophets. I just happen to believe this person is God. There is no conflict between LORD and Lord because they are one and the same. There is no conflict with who is really King because there is one shepherd-king over them, which is the LORD himself. David can rightly say God is his shepherd and the prophets can confirm it is David’s offspring. People can be shepherded by a man and not disregard the voice of God.

That is, if the man is no mere mortal, but is God among us.

 

[simplynoone]

I’m thinking about Jacob talking to Joseph about his sons and the death of his mother Rachel (buried in Bethlehem), and Ruth who follows Naomi back to Bethlehem.

What relevance do you see?

I was curious what relevance you might see. If you don’t, then don’t worry about it.

In Isaiah 11:10, it says there shall be a root of Jesse that shall stand as an ensign for the people.

David, being born in Bethlehem mind you, learned a valuable lesson that is quite applicable today … this would be in regards to sacrifice and the Law. Psalm 119. Jesus was enligtened to this lesson, too, as is evidenced in Matthew 12:7.

 

[simplynoone]

There is a precedent for abridged genealogies is found in (Ezra 7:1–5). Matthew does it to stress 3 units of the number 14, showing Jesus as the new Davidic king (D=4+V=6+D=4=14). Allegorically, Jesus’ 42 total generations signify the 42 encampments of the Israelites between the Exodus and their entry into the Promised Land.

Then surely you can admit that Jesus is allegorical of those who are enlightened … aka resurrected to Life by God… not physically, but rather spiritually. Could you do this or must it be believed that Jesus was literally a man who lived and died and then physically was resurrected before he left everyone behind to go to some heaven far away?

 

[simplynoone]

I don’t disagree that God reveals Himself through Israel, but Isaiah 45:14 is refering to Cyrus who is a Persian. With God all things are possible.

Whilst I am unsure what that has to do with the point I was drawing out … you are correct. And it is through Israel that the LORD is revealed … not one man.

 

[simplynoone]

After His resurrection he ascended to heaven.

As he blessed them he parted from them and was taken up to heaven. (Luke 24:51)

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. (Dan 7:13)

He is also present in the Eucharist (the bread that came down from heaven). Read John 6. and

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20)

And inturn, he is present in us.

John 6:15

I don’t believe he is staying away. He is here. If you mean coming down from heaven in glory, yes sometimes I wonder.

**Ecclesiastes 9:10 … you need not wonder anymore. **

I would ask you the same question about the promises given to Israel by the prophets, especially the utopian ones?

**There is no such idea as Utopia in the Tanakh. There is the outline of what happens when the People are punished and there is what happens when they are no longer punished. And the purpose is to reveal the ways of God to the world … what Justice and Judgment are according to His righteousness. This is the covenant and given that it is everlasting, there is no idea of everlasting utopia. **

Catholics believe that Jesus opened the way for us to the heavenly Jerusalem. After death, God’s good and faithful servants live there with Him.

**Ecclesiastes 12:7 … the spirit came from God and it will return to God. Just as you have no memory of life before you were born, neither will you have knowledge of it after you die. Yes, death is indeed returning to the state of perfection. **

This is the first resurrection from death to eternal life.

**Hosea 6:1,2 is the resurrection of the people from a state of ignorance to a state of spiritual awareness. There is no other resurrection. **

As God’s Kingdom continues to grow on earth (amidst the pain and suffering of life), so does the heavenly Jerusalem.

We ARE in the Kingdom of God. This is what He created. Isaiah 45:18

We believe the physical (second) resurrection will occur at the end of time when the heavenly Jerusalem comes to earth and God dwells with his people.That is the ultimate new creation of God when the old heaven’s and earth pass away the new heaven’s and earth are utopian.

**The saying “heaven and earth pass away” is an analogy of when we die. This, too, is what Jesus meant by the Law shall not be abolished until “heaven and earth” pass away. When you die, then yes, you are in “utopia” … in other words, you are blissfully unaware. **

But this is the voice of God.

**Deut 4:12; Zechariah 13:9 … in the fire is where the voice of God is heard. **

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will raise up a righteous shoot to David; As king he shall reign and govern wisely, he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, Israel shall dwell in security. This is the name they give him: “The LORD our justice.” (Jer 23:5-6)

I will appoint one shepherd over them to pasture them, my servant David; he shall pasture them and be their shepherd. I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezek 34:23-24)

You don’t believe this speaks to Jesus, which is your perogative. I do. Whatever person this refers to, doesn’t change the fact of what God said through the prophets. I just happen to believe this person is God. There is no conflict between LORD and Lord because they are one and the same. There is no conflict with who is really King because there is one shepherd-king over them, which is the LORD himself. David can rightly say God is his shepherd and the prophets can confirm it is David’s offspring. People can be shepherded by a man and not disregard the voice of God.

That is, if the man is no mere mortal, but is God among us.

Jeremiah 17:25; then Isaiah 7:14 and Immanuel (God WITH us) is declared in Isaiah 8:8 … Judah. That would be the Jews.

God, who is not a man, is their Shepherd and their King. Shall I point out the proof of this as well within the Tanakh?

 

[ryanoneil]

I was curious what relevance you might see. If you don’t, then don’t worry about it.

In Isaiah 11:10, it says there shall be a root of Jesse that shall stand as an ensign for the people.

David, being born in Bethlehem mind you, learned a valuable lesson that is quite applicable today … this would be in regards to sacrifice and the Law. Psalm 119. Jesus was enligtened to this lesson, too, as is evidenced in Matthew 12:7.

When a Roman enrollment sent every man to his home town, Mary had to go to Bethlehem with her husband Joseph - because Jesus was of the house and family of David.

But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times. (Therefore the Lord will give them up, until the time when she who is to give birth has borne, And the rest of his brethren shall return to the children of Israel.) He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the majestic name of the LORD, his God; And they shall remain, for now his greatness shall reach to the ends of the earth; (Micah 5:1-3)

 

[ryanoneil]

Then surely you can admit that Jesus is allegorical of those who are enlightened … aka resurrected to Life by God… not physically, but rather spiritually. Could you do this or must it be believed that Jesus was literally a man who lived and died and then physically was resurrected before he left everyone behind to go to some heaven far away?

Matthew is showing us that Jesus is the perfect Son of David, in whom all the promises God made to David are completed. More than allegorical of those who are elightened, Jesus is portrayed as the Messiah who truely ends the Babylonian exile. All the descendants of Israel would be brought back together and the kingdom of David would be restored. Not in a strict earthly sense. The heavenly aspect is integral to Christianity.

 

[ryanoneil]

Whilst I am unsure what that has to do with the point I was drawing out … you are correct. And it is through Israel that the LORD is revealed … not one man.

You said it is impossible for God to reveal Himself through one man, but the LORD said he would arm Cyrus so men would know that there is no God beside the LORD. (Isa 45:5-6) God is saying He will reveal himself through Cyrus. Of course God reveals himself through Israel but he also does it through one man.

 

[ryanoneil]

There is no such idea as Utopia in the Tanakh. There is the outline of what happens when the People are punished and there is what happens when they are no longer punished. And the purpose is to reveal the ways of God to the world … what Justice and Judgment are according to His righteousness. This is the covenant and given that it is everlasting, there is no idea of everlasting utopia.

In days to come, The mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established as the highest mountain and raised above the hills. All nations shall stream toward it; many peoples shall come and say: “Come, let us climb the LORD’S mountain, to the house of the God of Jacob, That he may instruct us in his ways, and we may walk in his paths.” For from Zion shall go forth instruction, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and impose terms on many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; One nation shall not raise the sword against another, nor shall they train for war again. (Isa 2:2-4)

Every man shall sit under his own vine or under his own fig tree, undisturbed; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. For all the peoples walk each in the name of its god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD, our God, forever and ever. On that day, says the LORD, I will gather the lame, And I will assemble the outcasts, and those whom I have afflicted. I will make of the lame a remnant, and of those driven far off a strong nation; And the LORD shall be king over them on Mount Zion, from now on forever. (Micah 4:4-7)

 

[ryanoneil]

**Ecclesiastes 12:7 … the spirit came from God and it will return to God. Just as you have no memory of life before you were born, neither will you have knowledge of it after you die. Yes, death is indeed returning to the state of perfection.

Hosea 6:1,2 is the resurrection of the people from a state of ignorance to a state of spiritual awareness. There is no other resurrection. **
According to traditional Judaism there is another resurrection. It was a belief that distinguished the Pharisees (intellectual ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism) from the Sadducees.

 

[ryanoneil]

Jeremiah 17:25 ; then Isaiah 7:14 and Immanuel (God WITH us) is declared in Isaiah 8:8 … Judah. That would be the Jews.

I don’t disagree, but you discount the significance of the individual for the people as a whole. The Davidic king is from Judah and is a Jew but he is not indistinguishable from the people as a whole.

then, through the gates of this city, kings who sit upon the throne of David will continue to enter, riding in their chariots or upon their horses, along with their princes, and the men of Judah, and the citizens of Jerusalem. This city will remain inhabited forever. (Jer 17:25)

And the son is identified apart from Judah as a whole.

Then I went to the prophetess and she conceived and bore a son. The LORD said to me: Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Isa 8:3)

I’m not disagreeing with you except you keep saying only, only, only, and that is not the case.

God, who is not a man, is their Shepherd and their King. Shall I point out the proof of this as well within the Tanakh?

Like I said before, I agree God is Shepherd and King. But you are saying only again. It is not the case. I welcome all the proof you have, but it doesn’t change the fact that God has appointed an earthly individual to fill that role.

**Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will raise up a righteous shoot to David; As king he shall reign and govern wisely, he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, Israel shall dwell in security. This is the name they give him: “The LORD our justice.” (Jer 23:5-6)

I will appoint one shepherd over them to pasture them, my servant David; he shall pasture them and be their shepherd. I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezek 34:23-24)**

The messiah spoken of by the prophets is an individual.

 

[simplynoone]

When a Roman enrollment sent every man to his home town, Mary had to go to Bethlehem with her husband Joseph - because Jesus was of the house and family of David.

But you, Bethlehem-Ephrathah too small to be among the clans of Judah, From you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel; Whose origin is from of old, from ancient times. (Therefore the Lord will give them up, until the time when she who is to give birth has borne, And the rest of his brethren shall return to the children of Israel.) He shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the majestic name of the LORD, his God; And they shall remain, for now his greatness shall reach to the ends of the earth; (Micah 5:1-3)

But it wasn’t talking about Jesus. First, as I stated, David was born in Bethlehem. Solomon came forth from David. Then if we look at 2 Samuel 7:12-16, this is speaking of Solomon. Verse 14 is a direct correlation to Isaiah 53… being chastened by the rod of men and with the stripes of the children of men … induced by God. This is a conceptual metaphor of the Jewish People. And according to Isaiah 53, it truly is by their knowledge that many are justified.

 

[simplynoone]

Matthew is showing us that Jesus is the perfect Son of David, in whom all the promises God made to David are completed. More than allegorical of those who are elightened, Jesus is portrayed as the Messiah who truely ends the Babylonian exile. All the descendants of Israel would be brought back together and the kingdom of David would be restored. Not in a strict earthly sense. The heavenly aspect is integral to Christianity.

But Israel was again dispersed into the Nations and this time for 2,000 years. Christianity did more to provoke the murderings of the People rather than to help them. Hitler DID in fact use Christianity to further his agenda against them. I have posted the proof for this on another thread I started. The Catholic Church worked hand in hand with him … this all according to official documents from the time.

It was the Jews who purchased back their land for the People. Christians did not help with this and certainly Jesus was not around to help with the matters and again … it was in his name that so many, including Hitler, committed these horrific acts against the People.

 

[simplynoone]

You said it is impossible for God to reveal Himself through one man, but the LORD said he would arm Cyrus so men would know that there is no God beside the LORD. (Isa 45:5-6) God is saying He will reveal himself through Cyrus. Of course God reveals himself through Israel but he also does it through one man.

Cyrus in this context was used as a conceptual metaphor. He did not only use Cyrus in this way, but Moses, Nebuchadnezzar, and others since in the same way. God is infinite knowledge and thus, since we are not, it is impossible for Him to EVER be revealed through only one man. Only ever one smidgen of an aspect of how he deals with us can be revealed through one man … thus, why the People are the anointed. And not just the People, but the kings of the earth as well … which this IS revealed in the Tanakh.

But Jesus is certainly not the full embodiment of God. He only was used (as many others were) to reveal AN aspect of God’s ways in dealing with us (and others in the Tanakh also had this same aspect revealed through them) … and it actually isn’t the pleasant aspect so many like to think it is. Certainly it is not to the benefit of the Christians who believe he was/is God.

 

[simplynoone]

In days to come, The mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established as the highest mountain and raised above the hills. All nations shall stream toward it; many peoples shall come and say: “Come, let us climb the LORD’S mountain, to the house of the God of Jacob, That he may instruct us in his ways, and we may walk in his paths.” For from Zion shall go forth instruction, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and impose terms on many peoples. They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; One nation shall not raise the sword against another, nor shall they train for war again. (Isa 2:2-4)

Every man shall sit under his own vine or under his own fig tree, undisturbed; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. For all the peoples walk each in the name of its god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD, our God, forever and ever. On that day, says the LORD, I will gather the lame, And I will assemble the outcasts, and those whom I have afflicted. I will make of the lame a remnant, and of those driven far off a strong nation; And the LORD shall be king over them on Mount Zion, from now on forever. (Micah 4:4-7)

And there always will be a portion of the Jewish in Jerusalem who are devoted wholly to God as their King. Keep reading though … this was not the end. This is part of the deeper wisdom that comes from the Laws (and purpose of the People) handed down by Moses.

 

[simplynoone]

According to traditional Judaism there is another resurrection. It was a belief that distinguished the Pharisees (intellectual ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism) from the Sadducees.

Yes, but the resurrection that the Pharisees and even Jesus believed in was not the one painted by Paul and greek mythologies. It was the one spoken of according to Hosea 6:1-2 … notice the “us” … again more proof that Isaiah 53, by using the same language, is not speaking of one man other than as a conceptual metaphor as the People.

That Jesus was speaking of this resurrection in his teachings is not only proved by his statement in Matthew 5:17-19 (where he points to the Law and the prophets as the basis on which his teachings should be translated), but even more specifically in Luke 13:32. And that this is the same idea of resurrection that the Pharisees held to is proved in two specific places that I can think of. One is in Matthew 22:29-34. They agreed with Jesus … but yet, they did not agree with Paul’s version of the resurrection. It is a resurrection to awareness of God, to Life, that Jesus spoke of and not one of a literal meaning such as the Paul’s … which came directly from Greek myth.