The Gift that keeps on taking

[simplynoone]

I don’t disagree, but you discount the significance of the individual for the people as a whole. The Davidic king is from Judah and is a Jew but he is not indistinguishable from the people as a whole.

then, through the gates of this city, kings who sit upon the throne of David will continue to enter, riding in their chariots or upon their horses, along with their princes, and the men of Judah, and the citizens of Jerusalem. This city will remain inhabited forever. (Jer 17:25)

And the son is identified apart from Judah as a whole.

Then I went to the prophetess and she conceived and bore a son. The LORD said to me: Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz (Isa 8:3)

I’m not disagreeing with you except you keep saying only, only, only, and that is not the case.

I am not the one saying “only only only” … any of the People have the means to fit into any of these roles … that was the point.

Like I said before, I agree God is Shepherd and King. But you are saying only again. It is not the case. I welcome all the proof you have, but it doesn’t change the fact that God has appointed an earthly individual to fill that role.

Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will raise up a righteous shoot to David; As king he shall reign and govern wisely, he shall do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah shall be saved, Israel shall dwell in security. This is the name they give him: “The LORD our justice.” (Jer 23:5-6)

I will appoint one shepherd over them to pasture them, my servant David; he shall pasture them and be their shepherd. I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I, the LORD, have spoken. (Ezek 34:23-24)

The messiah spoken of by the prophets is an individual.

Or the word by the People for the People … the Tanakh. That is where I go to seek higher Wisdom.

 

[ryanoneil]

But it wasn’t talking about Jesus. First, as I stated, David was born in Bethlehem. Solomon came forth from David. Then if we look at 2 Samuel 7:12-16, this is speaking of Solomon. Verse 14 is a direct correlation to Isaiah 53… being chastened by the rod of men and with the stripes of the children of men … induced by God. This is a conceptual metaphor of the Jewish People. And according to Isaiah 53, it truly is by their knowledge that many are justified.

I disagree. It is about the ruler of Israel.

 

[ryanoneil]

But Israel was again dispersed into the Nations and this time for 2,000 years. Christianity did more to provoke the murderings of the People rather than to help them. Hitler DID in fact use Christianity to further his agenda against them. I have posted the proof for this on another thread I started. The Catholic Church worked hand in hand with him … this all according to official documents from the time.

It was the Jews who purchased back their land for the People. Christians did not help with this and certainly Jesus was not around to help with the matters and again … it was in his name that so many, including Hitler, committed these horrific acts against the People.

I entirely agree that Hitler was a monster. The Catholic Church did not work hand in hand with him.

 

[ryanoneil]

Cyrus in this context was used as a conceptual metaphor. He did not only use Cyrus in this way, but Moses, Nebuchadnezzar, and others since in the same way. God is infinite knowledge and thus, since we are not, it is impossible for Him to EVER be revealed through only one man. Only ever one smidgen of an aspect of how he deals with us can be revealed through one man … thus, why the People are the anointed. And not just the People, but the kings of the earth as well … which this IS revealed in the Tanakh.

But Jesus is certainly not the full embodiment of God. He only was used (as many others were) to reveal AN aspect of God’s ways in dealing with us (and others in the Tanakh also had this same aspect revealed through them) … and it actually isn’t the pleasant aspect so many like to think it is. Certainly it is not to the benefit of the Christians who believe he was/is God.

Other than your denial of Christ’s divinity, I agree with you.

 

[ryanoneil]

And there always will be a portion of the Jewish in Jerusalem who are devoted wholly to God as their King. Keep reading though … this was not the end. This is part of the deeper wisdom that comes from the Laws (and purpose of the People) handed down by Moses.

It’s not the end on earth, but is in the heavenly aspect. There is Israel’s true restoration.

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes, but the resurrection that the Pharisees and even Jesus believed in was not the one painted by Paul and greek mythologies. It was the one spoken of according to Hosea 6:1-2 … notice the “us” … again more proof that Isaiah 53, by using the same language, is not speaking of one man other than as a conceptual metaphor as the People.

I agree the Pharisees thought the resurrection had much less to do with metaphysics than with politics, but they did believe in the metaphysical aspect. Jesus also believed in the political aspect of the resurrection, but that paled in comparission to his metaphysical message.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” (john 18:36)

That Jesus was speaking of this resurrection in his teachings is not only proved by his statement in Matthew 5:17-19 (where he points to the Law and the prophets as the basis on which his teachings should be translated), but even more specifically in Luke 13:32. And that this is the same idea of resurrection that the Pharisees held to is proved in two specific places that I can think of. One is in Matthew 22:29-34. They agreed with Jesus … but yet, they did not agree with Paul’s version of the resurrection. It is a resurrection to awareness of God, to Life, that Jesus spoke of and not one of a literal meaning such as the Paul’s … which came directly from Greek myth.

Notice in Mt 5:17 Jesus says he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. Fulfill means to make complete. The New Covenant includes and concludes the Old Covenant. It both perfects it and transforms it. Jesus was not speaking only of this resurrection.

In Luke 13:28 Jesus says “And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.” He is not speaking only of this resurrection.

Concerning Mt 22, read verses 23-28. They are talking about the physical death of (Deut 25:5-6). Mt 22:30 says “At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven”. They can not be speaking only of this resurrection because Jesus is talking about the end of earthly marriage and it’s purpose of begetting children and sanctifying spouses. Neither of which are needed in heaven. Like angels, we will beget no offspring and we will worship God continually.

Jesus also cites (Ex 3:6), but not in the context of this resurrection. Jesus is revealing that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still alive with God and their ongoing presence with Him is the precondition for their resurrection in the future. This is an aspect of God’s ways in dealing with us.

 

[simplynoone]

I disagree. It is about the ruler of Israel.

Was not Solomon a ruler of Israel? And what was he most known for? His Wisdom. That is what his disposition consists of … wisdom. He represents, again, the spirit of Wisdom.

The Spirit of Wisdom is, in essence, the ruler of Israel, the People.

This is much like the way the reference to Elijah was made in Malachi 4:5 … it is not speaking of literally (else that would contradict Ecclesiastes 9:5-6). It is speaking of the spirit (disposition) of Elijah …

Now, when you study the teachings of the 1st century Rabbis and the Jewish warriors, you should see that they had the same disposition as did Elijah (that is assuming you have studied in detail the accounts of Elijah)… they, the People, clearly had that same spirit that was on fire for the Truth and willing to do what it would take to keep corruption from polluting what they had been handed down.

THINK, NOW … I Kings 18 … the call to sacrifice. 2,000 years … and the god, Jesus, that the Christians have been claiming to come back has not come back even though it is DOCUMENTED in your own NT that it was soon … even it was said, before some of them died.

But NOW … God is starting to light the true sacrifice … that would be written in Jeremiah 31:27, confirmed in Isaiah 53:8-10 (as well as all through out the Tanakh) …

I certainly am testimony to the seed spoken of in verse 10 … the seed of Israel, the servant (Isaiah 49:3) … and Isaiah 45:25 says they are all justified (and without belief in a man … rather because of their Saviour, God, Who is not a man, but is spirit John 4:24).

Think further with me here. David had a man killed to try to cover his sin of adultry. But clearly through Psalm 119, we see how precious the Law became when he learned that IT was the only way to understand and through that understanding one becomes justified. He CLEARLY learned that the blood of a man shed for covering his sins was W.R.O.N.G. (and the Tanakh clearly states in several places that one man cannot stand in the place of another … each man will be accountable for their ownself). Of course, then, David’s son, Solomon became known for his great wisdom …

This is all a conceptual metaphor of the Truth … the mythologies (that Jesus was God and his sacrifice covers sins) was not the truth of God’s way… 2,000 years later and why oh why can’t any of you see this gorgeous wisdom!!!

This Wisdom is learned through the Law of God … Psalm 19:7-11. That is the spirit of Wisdom, which is the ruler of Israel. The curse of hiding from judgment (Jeremiah 17:5) is seen in the archetype of King David, and the disposition of wise judgment via the archetype of his son, Solomon … the ruler is the disposition of Solomon (not perfection, but making wise judgments) … the ruler is not a literal man …

Genesis 18:19 … it was the whole reason God chose Abraham, ya know. Psalm 78:5. Because this People would teach it to their children … and then, Psalm 78:1-3.

The way of God is written before all … and the name Jesus is not there (only it is perceived to be there because of the powerful magic called “suggestion” that so many have fallen for).

 

[simplynoone]

I entirely agree that Hitler was a monster. The Catholic Church did not work hand in hand with him.

Official documentation shows otherwise. I have posted this in another thread … will find it and link you there after I have finished replying to your other posts.

 

[simplynoone]

Other than your denial of Christ’s divinity, I agree with you.

Well, kudos to us for agreeing in one aspect, and what we don’t agree on only gives us cause to continue seeking understanding of one another’s position … thus, we still can learn … and learning is what makes life interesting.

 

[simplynoone]

It’s not the end on earth, but is in the heavenly aspect. There is Israel’s true restoration.

What is it that you consider “Israel’s true restoration?”

 

[simplynoone]

I agree the Pharisees thought the resurrection had much less to do with metaphysics than with politics, but they did believe in the metaphysical aspect. Jesus also believed in the political aspect of the resurrection, but that paled in comparission to his metaphysical message.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” (john 18:36)

Let’s look at the passage more closely … it is quite clear what is being conveyed. It is not what you are implying … sorry.

**35 **Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?

**36 **Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
**37 **Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

First of all, he wasn’t being delivered to the Jews … this is clear by what Pilate says and then Jesus makes clear that it is not the Jews who are killing him.

In verse 36, “this world” is speaking of Rome … his kingdom and his status was the same as every other Jew.

In verse 37, Jesus is clearly saying that the Gentiles (personified by Pilate) are calling him a king … and to that end he was born. HE WAS NOT CLAIMING TO BE A (OR EVEN THE) KING. You all are the ones calling him that … and he clearly states, that was his END (he had a beginning and an end and thus could not be God, Who is eternal, without beginning and without end)!!!

Mark 15:12 … Pilate tries to pass off the blame to the Jews, but Jesus makes it clear … “thou sayest it” … Pilate is the one calling him “the king of the jews” … and thus those who HEAR his voice, understand … he was not the king and neither did he claim to be the king… and in fact, he avoided like a plague any opportunity that would arise that he could be called such among his own, the Jewish (for he KNEW he wasn’t their king) … just read John 6:15 … they were not ready at the time to understand that they were ALL the chosen of God… the People, Israel (the Servant, Isaiah 53).

Jesus didn’t claim to have a kingdom … instead, well, read Matthew 6:10,13,33, Matthew 13:43; and in Matthew 10:7, that kingdom is, yes, here on earth … it just did not belong to Jesus is all. Rather, the kingdom belongs to the Jewish People (John 4:22), given to them of God (Who is their King) and confirmed by Jesus… Luke 12:32. Matthew 10:18 <---- how true is that … for how many Jews have been SLAUGHTERED because of the name of Jesus at the hands of Christians? God forbid that we should ever know the true number … it is too high in number.

 

[simplynoone]

Notice in Mt 5:17 Jesus says he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. Fulfill means to make complete. The New Covenant includes and concludes the Old Covenant.

I showed you where Jesus claims his end. Now read all of Matthew 5:17-19 … all has not been fulfilled and thus, the TANAKH is not concluded. Heaven and Earth have not passed away. Jesus, as one of the People, fulfilled his obligation … but that doesn’t mean all has been fulfilled. God is infinite knowledge … thus, this could go on for a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY (infinitely) long time. That you and I are fulfilling our roles now is fact … and when our end comes as did Jesus, others are left still fulfilling. OH YES!

It both perfects it and transforms it. Jesus was not speaking only of this resurrection.

Admittedly there are several resurrections for the People … there is the awareness to Life (their duty), then there is the resurrection to the People for those who have been “cut off” (Isaiah 53), and then the resurrection of the People to the Land.

Of course, there is the resurrection of the spirit back to God who gave it to us in the first place. This is the end for you and I … we return to the dust and the spirit (the breath of life) goes back to God (where it came from in the first place). This is clearly what is written in Ecclesiastes more than once.

In Luke 13:28 Jesus says “And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.” He is not speaking only of this resurrection.

This is spoken to those who Jesus said he came to call out to … the lost house of Israel. And this is truth … these are the ones “cut off” … and it is excruciating to be separated from your own. But then again, there is consolation … through the fire : Deut 4:12; Zechariah 13:9.

Concerning Mt 22, read verses 23-28.

Read carefully Genesis 21:22 to the end of the chapter … also do a study on Abimelech (it shouldn’t take too long) … then get back to me. I think that this is merely a marker to put you all in your place concerning Jesus. He is not God and it should be noted that you are speaking mythologies regarding a Jewish man … tsk tsk.

Jesus is revealing that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still alive with God and their ongoing presence with Him is the precondition for their resurrection in the future. This is an aspect of God’s ways in dealing with us.

Jesus spoke according to the Law and the prophets … the prophets clearly referred to these men as the People … thus, God IS a God of the Living … the People is still living. This is what Jesus was CLEARLY referring to. THAT IS why the Pharisees were amazed … because Jesus, the son of a poor carpenter, understood what they understood. The resurrection is not mystical … it is of the People. And the Saducees could not argue because JESUS WAS NOT speaking mysticism, rather he was speaking to the Law and to the Prophets. Jesus was not promoting the resurrection of the body after one dies … he was promoting the resurrection of the People.

 

[simplynoone]

The link I said I would post regarding Hitler’s relationship with the Catholic Church:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5516710&postcount=9

 

[Lapell]

Matthew 8:1-4

A man, being healed of his leprosy, was told by Jesus to go to the priests and present the gift TO THEM as spoken of by Moses. I do believe this to be allegorical and purposely inserted for lesson purposes as well as to see who actually even is paying attention to what is now referred to as the old testament (which Jesus DOES specifically make mention of metaphorically as being better than the new Luke 5:37-39).

I don’t think you even know the first thing about Scriptures to say a thing like this, mademoiselle! What it tells us is about continuity between the OT and the NT!!! The NT completes the OT and the NT is explained by the OT. Not one without the other!

 

[Lapell]

I don’t think i need say more… You need to learn not to oppose the OT and the NT, but to let one shed light on the other, otherwise, you are prone to many serious errors!

 

[ryanoneil]

Was not Solomon a ruler of Israel? And what was he most known for? His Wisdom. That is what his disposition consists of … wisdom. He represents, again, the spirit of Wisdom.

I’m sorry I don’t have alot of time to talk. I can appreciate what you are saying but we believe in a more literal fulfillment of those verses- related to 2 Sam 7:16 which says there will always be an heir of David seated upon his throne.

 

[ryanoneil]

What is it that you consider “Israel’s true restoration?”

That portion devoted to God residing in the Heavenly Jerusalem for eternity. Where the sword is truely beaten into plowshares and sword is not raised against one another.

 

[ryanoneil]

Let’s look at the passage more closely … it is quite clear what is being conveyed. It is not what you are implying … sorry.

In verse 36, “this world” is speaking of Rome … his kingdom and his status was the same as every other Jew.

Sorry, Pilate is asking if he is the king of the Jewish nation. Read verse 35.

In verse 37, Jesus is clearly saying that the Gentiles (personified by Pilate) are calling him a king … and to that end he was born. HE WAS NOT CLAIMING TO BE A (OR EVEN THE) KING. You all are the ones calling him that … and he clearly states, that was his END (he had a beginning and an end and thus could not be God, Who is eternal, without beginning and without end)!!!

That is not what end means in this verse. It means for this reason. Jesus is not saying what you imply. He said he had a kingship in verse 36.

Mark 15:12 … Pilate tries to pass off the blame to the Jews, but Jesus makes it clear … “thou sayest it” … Pilate is the one calling him “the king of the jews” … and thus those who HEAR his voice, understand … he was not the king and neither did he claim to be the king… and in fact, he avoided like a plague any opportunity that would arise that he could be called such among his own, the Jewish (for he KNEW he wasn’t their king) … just read John 6:15 … they were not ready at the time to understand that they were ALL the chosen of God… the People, Israel (the Servant, Isaiah 53).

Jesus is not denying his royal mission. He is disassociating from the political form of government Pilate was concerned with, and turning the focus toward heaven.

Jesus backed away from the people in (John 6:15) because his kingdom is heavenly and spiritual and Israel wanted him to overthrow the Romans and reestablish thier national independence in Palestine.

Jesus didn’t claim to have a kingdom … instead, well, read Matthew 6:10,13,33, Matthew 13:43; and in Matthew 10:7, that kingdom is, yes, here on earth … it just did not belong to Jesus is all. Rather, the kingdom belongs to the Jewish People (John 4:22), given to them of God (Who is their King) and confirmed by Jesus… Luke 12:32. Matthew 10:18 <---- how true is that … for how many Jews have been SLAUGHTERED because of the name of Jesus at the hands of Christians? God forbid that we should ever know the true number … it is too high in number.

Jesus accepted the title of Messiah and Son of David.

**The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, the one called the Anointed; when he comes, he will tell us everything.” Jesus said to her, “I am he, the one who is speaking with you.” (John 4:25-26)

Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who is coming into the world.” (John 11:25-27)**

 

[ryanoneil]

3I showed you where Jesus claims his end. Now read all of Matthew 5:17-19 … all has not been fulfilled and thus, the TANAKH is not concluded. Heaven and Earth have not passed away. Jesus, as one of the People, fulfilled his obligation … but that doesn’t mean all has been fulfilled. God is infinite knowledge … thus, this could go on for a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY (infinitely) long time. That you and I are fulfilling our roles now is fact … and when our end comes as did Jesus, others are left still fulfilling. OH YES!

While I agree he speaks of the literal Heaven and Earth he is also talking about the Temple (Ps 78:69). Smallest parts of the letter of the law have passed with the New Covenant and the destruction of the Temple.

Admittedly there are several resurrections for the People … there is the awareness to Life (their duty), then there is the resurrection to the People for those who have been “cut off” (Isaiah 53), and then the resurrection of the People to the Land.

Of course, there is the resurrection of the spirit back to God who gave it to us in the first place. This is the end for you and I … we return to the dust and the spirit (the breath of life) goes back to God (where it came from in the first place). This is clearly what is written in Ecclesiastes more than once.

Why do you call it a resurrection of the spirit back to God?

Read carefully Genesis 21:22 to the end of the chapter … also do a study on Abimelech (it shouldn’t take too long) … then get back to me. I think that this is merely a marker to put you all in your place concerning Jesus. He is not God and it should be noted that you are speaking mythologies regarding a Jewish man … tsk tsk.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. The hypothetical scenario is based on the levirate law of Deut 25:5-6.

Jesus spoke according to the Law and the prophets … the prophets clearly referred to these men as the People … thus, God IS a God of the Living … the People is still living. This is what Jesus was CLEARLY referring to. THAT IS why the Pharisees were amazed … because Jesus, the son of a poor carpenter, understood what they understood. The resurrection is not mystical … it is of the People. And the Saducees could not argue because JESUS WAS NOT speaking mysticism, rather he was speaking to the Law and to the Prophets. Jesus was not promoting the resurrection of the body after one dies … he was promoting the resurrection of the People.

The Sadducees only accepted the five books of Moses as Sacred Scripture and rejected the authority of the OT prophets. Jesus tailored his response by citing Ex 3:6. And deduced that God revealed himself as the God of the long-deceased patriachs who’s spirits were still alive with God.

 

[simplynoone]

I don’t think you even know the first thing about Scriptures to say a thing like this, mademoiselle! What it tells us is about continuity between the OT and the NT!!! The NT completes the OT and the NT is explained by the OT. Not one without the other!

First, I am relieved to see someone with at least the common sense to say that the NT is explained by the Tanakh. Believe it or not, I have heard too many times that it is the other way around.

Second, I believe that it completes the Tanakh; but in the sense of what is said in Jeremiah 17:5,9-10.