The GIRM and the GLORIA

[Harry_John]

The GIRM states in part " The Goria is a very ancient and venerable hymn…The text of this hymn may not be replaced by any other text." The mass in Latin still has the phrase “et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis” which has traditionaly translated as ‘on earth, peace to men of good will.’ Now we say in English 'peace to His people on earth.; and in Spanish ‘en la tierra paz a los hombres que ama el Senor’

I always thought that the meaning of the words used in the Mass was the same regardless of the language used, so that when I visited a Catholic Church in Japan, or China or Portugal I could follow in my missal and understand the prayers and readings even though I may not understand the homily.

I know there are many new readings of Luke 2-14. A foot note in the Saint Jerome Edition of the New American Bible reads:" on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests; the peace that results from the Christ event is for those whom God has favored with his grace. This reading is found in the oldest representatives of the Western an Alexandrian text traditions and is the prefferred one."

I always thought that ST.Jerome’s Vulgate was and is the Official Bible of The Roman Catholic Church; that Jerome relied on ancient Greek texts for his revision of the many existing Latin copies of the Gospels!

What did the Heavenly Hosts sing? Did Luke get the wrong oral tradition? Was Jerome really fluent in the written and spoken languages of Greek, Aramaic, Latin and others of the times? Who did what to whom? Did God offer His peace to all men of good will? Or did he offer peace and good will to all men? Or did he offer peace to those on whom His favor rests? or only those who love him, or those whom he loves?

Does Pope JohnII prefer the new readings? Do you?

 

[Ham1]

The different wording is due to the poor translation from Latin to English. That is why a new translation is being prepared that will be closer to the latin words of the mass.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

which has traditionaly translated as ‘on earth, peace to men of good will.’ Now we say in English ‘peace to His people on earth.’

It stands to reason that those who are truly His [God’s] People would be of good will. Not a very good translation, but not a contradicting one either.

 

[Harry_John]

I don’t think that “peace to God’s people” is a translation of the Vulgate Latin.Note the foot note I cited. It appears that the current Biblical Scholars are going back to sources which Jerome considered and did not use.

I agree that most People of God (The Baptised) are men of good will. I Think that purgatory contains many men of good will who were never Baptised with the triune Formula but did by desire or by blood.
The Church’s liturgy, both the Mass and liturgy of the Hours include prayers for all who have died, not only for the Faithful departed i.e. not only Baptised, but faithful members of thr Catholic Church.

To my way of thinking ,limiting our prayer peace for only God’s People is more Parochlial and less generous than including all men of good will.

If St. Luke and St. Jerome got it wrong, what else will the Biblical Scholars of today, or tommorow change in our Bibles?

Respectfully

Harry John

 

[Bonnie]

I am sure that the version of the Gloria sung at our parish (but not by me) is not approved, but our priest doesn’t agree. It leaves out parts of the Gloria, while repeating over & over & over “Gloria! Gloria! In excelsis Deo!” The last verse is, “Glory, Father and Son, Glory, Holy Spirit, to you we raise our hands up high, we glorify your name.” It’s got a very spritely tune which gets people swaying, thankfully not clapping as is done in some parishes. Ths song was written by someone named Mike Anderson.

 

[Minimus]

Harry John:

I don’t think that “peace to God’s people” is a translation of the Vulgate Latin.Note the foot note I cited. It appears that the current Biblical Scholars are going back to sources which Jerome considered and did not use.

It isn’t; some are (and some are just making things up); and a very perceptive observation. Jerome’s selection of which Latin words to employ to translate his sources and how to put them together is entirely arresting. One has only to compare the Vulgate New Testament with Jerome’s personal letters (epistles); they are as different stylistically as night and day. St. Jerome knew what he was doing. Like you, I feel it is obvious that he had sources that are no longer in circulation, that he rejected the authenticity of some, and accepted others that the patristic fathers had hallowed…which became the Vulgate.

 

[Haggai_1_7]

Bonnie:

I am sure that the version of the Gloria sung at our parish (but not by me) is not approved, but our priest doesn’t agree. It leaves out parts of the Gloria, while repeating over & over & over “Gloria! Gloria! In excelsis Deo!” The last verse is, “Glory, Father and Son, Glory, Holy Spirit, to you we raise our hands up high, we glorify your name.” It’s got a very spritely tune which gets people swaying, thankfully not clapping as is done in some parishes. Ths song was written by someone named Mike Anderson.

Just be gratefully that you don’t sing “Angels We Have Heard on High” in place of the Gloria on Christmas and all through the octave.

I think the Gloria is so beautiful, why replace it? Not to mention that the Church does not allow it!!

 

[Dr.Colossus]

At my parish during the Christmas season we sing the Gloria to the tune of Angels We Have Heard on High. But the words are still the same.

 

[CatholicNerd]

The ICEL can rot. I looked at the proposed text under consideration by Vox Clara a while back and I love it. The ICEL folks can whine all they want, but Vox Clara now has the final word. It’s about time.

 

[S_Corda]

Should we scrap the Latin, then, and go back to the earlier Greek?

 

[S_Corda]

CatholicNerd:

The ICEL can rot. I looked at the proposed text under consideration by Vox Clara a while back and I love it. The ICEL folks can whine all they want, but Vox Clara now has the final word. It’s about time.

Sorry for my ignorance, but
ICEL ??
Vox Clara ???

 

[tee_eff_em]

S_Corda:

Sorry for my ignorance, but
ICEL ??
Vox Clara ???

International Commission on English in the Liturgy (the group to blame for the current English translations of liturgical texts)

The Vox Clara committee is the group (under the auspices of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) that is preparing new English translations, more faithful to the Latin editiones typicae

 

[DrCat]

Bonnie:

I am sure that the version of the Gloria sung at our parish (but not by me) is not approved, but our priest doesn’t agree. It leaves out parts of the Gloria, while repeating over & over & over “Gloria! Gloria! In excelsis Deo!” The last verse is, “Glory, Father and Son, Glory, Holy Spirit, to you we raise our hands up high, we glorify your name.” It’s got a very spritely tune which gets people swaying, thankfully not clapping as is done in some parishes. Ths song was written by someone named Mike Anderson.

Sounds like the parish I used to go to. They sing the chorus from the Battle Hymn of the Republic (“Gloria Gloria Alleluya”). Haven’t been there in a while, so I’m not sure they still do this, but the last time I was there was pretty bad.

John