The Glorious Miracle of Prophet Muhammed: Mi'raj

[meltzerboy]

I will try again, because it’s God’s will that the good news of Jesus Christ be known.

Quran consists of 114 surat. And it starts with the Fatiha the opening surat, and in that opening surat, there is something very interesting. You know, it is a prayer, that the Muslims recite in each of the five daily prayers assigned to the Muslims. A verse in this opening prayer says, “Guide us to the straight way.” I will repeat, “Guide us to the straight way.” If we are already in the straight way, how could we pray ‘guide us in the straight way’? If I am in the right street, I would not say, “Please, guide me to the right street.” I am already there. But the Muslims are praying every day, seventeen times, “Guide us to the straight way.” What does that mean? It’s not yet in the straight way. You know why? Because Jesus Christ is the only way. He said, “I am the way.” He didn’t say, “I am a way.” He said, “I am THE way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father, but by me.” I wish that every Muslim will know the straight way, who is Jesus Christ. “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
And then we go to the names of God in the Quran. You’ll not find in the Quran the name of God as ‘father’. And you cannot find in the Quran the name of God as ‘love’. God the Father, God is love, there are not mentioned in the Quran. You know why? Because if we admit that God is the eternal Father, He must have an eternal son, and that means that we have to profess and declare that Jesus is the eternal Son of God.
Number two, if we declare that God is love, we have to declare also that, “God gave his only begotten son, that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is why the Quran omits the name of God as Father, and the name of God as love. These are very clear differences between the Quran and the Bible.

Why does admitting that G-d is our eternal Father mean He must have an eternal Son? Can’t G-d be the eternal Father to us humans? Likewise, saying that G-d is love can also be applicable to His compassion and mercy toward us and need not suggest that He has a Son.

 

[Reuben_J]

Why does admitting that G-d is our eternal Father mean He must have an eternal Son? Can’t G-d be the eternal Father to us humans? Likewise, saying that G-d is love can also be applicable to His compassion and mercy toward us and need not suggest that He has a Son.

I suppose it is not so for Muslims. They are adamant that God does not have a Son and therefore not a Father. But of course you are right, God can be an eternal Father without.a Son.

As for the second question, in the Christian context that is the highest form of love that we can know of from God - Him giving His only Son for the salvation of the world. The fact that God does not have to die or that he has to become a lowly human makes that action constitutes even greater love. So while God is loving by His mercy and compassion, His act of self-giving to dispense that mercy and compassion perhaps demonstrated even greater love.

While the Jews don’t have to avoid saying God as Father, Muslims do for reason that is found in their Quran, that God is not a Father because if He does, He would necessarily has a wife and a son, a belief it attributes to Christianity.

 

[meltzerboy]

I suppose it is not so for Muslims. They are adamant that God does not have a Son and therefore not a Father. But of course you are right, God can be an eternal Father without.a Son.

As for the second question, in the Christian context that is the highest form of love that we can know of from God - Him giving His only Son for the salvation of the world. The fact that God does not have to die or that he has to become a lowly human makes that action constitute even greater love. So while God is loving by His mercy and compassion, His act of self-giving perhaps demonstrated even greater love.

While the Jews don’t have to avoid saying God as Father, Muslims do for reason that is found in their Quran, that God is not a Father because if He does, He would necessarily has a wife and a son, a belief it attributes to Christianity.

Yes, I understand. And the wife (bride) of G-d is the Church?

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes, I understand. And the wife (bride) of G-d is the Church?

Yes. I think Jews would be quite familiar with God using marriage language. Christianity does expound on this more in the NT especially the epistles.

 

[Servant19]

I will try again, because it’s God’s will that the good news of Jesus Christ be known.

Quran consists of 114 surat. And it starts with the Fatiha the opening surat, and in that opening surat, there is something very interesting. You know, it is a prayer, that the Muslims recite in each of the five daily prayers assigned to the Muslims. A verse in this opening prayer says, “Guide us to the straight way.” I will repeat, “Guide us to the straight way.” If we are already in the straight way, how could we pray ‘guide us in the straight way’? If I am in the right street, I would not say, “Please, guide me to the right street.” I am already there. But the Muslims are praying every day, seventeen times, “Guide us to the straight way.” What does that mean? It’s not yet in the straight way. You know why? Because Jesus Christ is the only way. He said, “I am the way.” He didn’t say, “I am a way.” He said, “I am THE way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father, but by me.” I wish that every Muslim will know the straight way, who is Jesus Christ. “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
And then we go to the names of God in the Quran. You’ll not find in the Quran the name of God as ‘father’. And you cannot find in the Quran the name of God as ‘love’. God the Father, God is love, there are not mentioned in the Quran. You know why? Because if we admit that God is the eternal Father, He must have an eternal son, and that means that we have to profess and declare that Jesus is the eternal Son of God.
Number two, if we declare that God is love, we have to declare also that, “God gave his only begotten son, that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is why the Quran omits the name of God as Father, and the name of God as love. These are very clear differences between the Quran and the Bible.

When one prays to be “guided to the straight way” it is not a reflection on the guidance found in the Quran, it is a reflection on the impulse to act in the believer.

The straight way for Muslims is found in the Quran. Muslims pray that they may be guided to live a life according to its Holy counsel.

As is attested to by Jesus, the straight way is seen in him to does the “will of the Father”. Muslims are praying that they may be guided to do the will of the Father, Allah.

Hope that helps your dilemma

.

 

[Reuben_J]

When one prays to be “guided to the straight way” it is not a reflection on the guidance found in the Quran, it is a reflection on the impulse to act in the believer.

The straight way for Muslims is found in the Quran. Muslims pray that they may be guided to live a life according to its Holy counsel.

As is attested to by Jesus, the straight way is seen in him to does the “will of the Father”. Muslims are praying that they may be guided to do the will of the Father, Allah.

Hope that helps your dilemma

.

Understood Servant. Like when we pray, ‘grant me that I shall always follow your ways and live by your precept’. He/she was trying to have a dig at Muslims but it was nevertheless interesting not least the pun.

 

[hasantas]

I will try again, because it’s God’s will that the good news of Jesus Christ be known.

Quran consists of 114 surat. And it starts with the Fatiha the opening surat, and in that opening surat, there is something very interesting. You know, it is a prayer, that the Muslims recite in each of the five daily prayers assigned to the Muslims. A verse in this opening prayer says, “Guide us to the straight way.” I will repeat, “Guide us to the straight way.” If we are already in the straight way, how could we pray ‘guide us in the straight way’? If I am in the right street, I would not say, “Please, guide me to the right street.” I am already there. But the Muslims are praying every day, seventeen times, “Guide us to the straight way.” What does that mean? It’s not yet in the straight way. You know why? Because Jesus Christ is the only way. He said, “I am the way.” He didn’t say, “I am a way.” He said, “I am THE way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father, but by me.” I wish that every Muslim will know the straight way, who is Jesus Christ. “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”
And then we go to the names of God in the Quran. You’ll not find in the Quran the name of God as ‘father’. And you cannot find in the Quran the name of God as ‘love’. God the Father, God is love, there are not mentioned in the Quran. You know why? Because if we admit that God is the eternal Father, He must have an eternal son, and that means that we have to profess and declare that Jesus is the eternal Son of God.
Number two, if we declare that God is love, we have to declare also that, “God gave his only begotten son, that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is why the Quran omits the name of God as Father, and the name of God as love. These are very clear differences between the Quran and the Bible.

Islam is the straight way. Muslims ask from God to guide them to the straight way means that Muslims pray and ask from God to achieve to lead to the straight way. Because there are many obstractions on the road to straight way. The first obstraction is the self evil desires. Some of those self evil desires are lust, anger, mind, dishonesty, stinginess, laziness, greediness, fearfulness etc.

There are three levels of all senses and desires. For instance the low level of lust is frigidity even cannot get marry. The excessive level of lust is lustfulness who violate and rapes. The straight way of lust is purity who has a desire for which God allows and has no desires for which God restrained.

The law level of anger is fearfulness which is useless. The excessive level of anger is persecution who harm many people. The staright way of anger is to expel harmfuls and invite usefuls.

The low level of mind is foolishness. The excessive level of mind is dublecity. The straight way of mind is wisdom which can distinguish the good and the evil.

etc. tec.

And For instance Christians go on an excessive level of love for Jesus. They do not go on the straight way so they assume and recognise their prophet as God because of excessive love.

There are more significanses in the pray of “guide us to straight way” but I cannot explain because of poor English.

 

[hasantas]

I will try again, because it’s God’s will that the good news of Jesus Christ be known.

And then we go to the names of God in the Quran. You’ll not find in the Quran the name of God as ‘father’. And you cannot find in the Quran the name of God as ‘love’. God the Father, God is love, there are not mentioned in the Quran. You know why? Because if we admit that God is the eternal Father, He must have an eternal son, and that means that we have to profess and declare that Jesus is the eternal Son of God…

And those who take as allies other than Him - Allah is [yet] Guardian over them; and you, [O Muhammad], are not over them a manager.As-Shura:6

8-And if Allah willed, He could have made them [of] one religion, but He admits whom He wills into His mercy. And the wrongdoers have not any protector or helper.

9-Or have they taken protectors [or allies] besides him? But Allah - He is the Protector, and He gives life to the dead, and He is over all things competent.As-Shura:8-9

28-And it is He who sends down the rain after they had despaired and spreads His mercy. And He is the Protector, the Praiseworthy. As-Shura

45-And Allah is most knowing of your enemies; and sufficient is Allah as an ally, and sufficient is Allah as a helper. An-Nisa

11-For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah . Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron. Ar-Ra’d

40-But if they turn away - then know that Allah is your protector. Excellent is the protector, and Excellent is the helper. Al-Anfal

2-Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise. At-Tahrim

286- …And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people." Al-Baqarah

etc.

etc.

Father(vali in Arabic) means protector, helper. When Jesus got trouble He always asked from Father. And Allah is the sufficient Father(Helper, proptector) as it mentioned in Qur’an.

 

[hasantas]

Number two, if we declare that God is love, we have to declare also that, “God gave his only begotten son, that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” This is why the Quran omits the name of God as Father, and the name of God as love. These are very clear differences between the Quran and the Bible.

The most high level of faith is the Muhabbatullah(love of God) which is mentioned in Qur’an.

24 - Say, [O Muhammad], “If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.” At-Tawba

165- And [yet], among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals [to Him]. They love them as they [should] love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah … Al-Baqarah

134- Who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon the people - and Allah loves the doers of good; Al-Imran

14-And He is the Forgiving, the Affectionate, Al-Buruj

28- Those who have believed and whose hearts are assured by the remembrance of Allah . Unquestionably, by the remembrance of Allah hearts are assured." Ar-Ra’d

31- Say, [O Muhammad], “If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” Al-Imran

Love is the one of most importand cause for Allah to create universes because Allah loves His arts(creatures).

 

[jimkhong]

Last night Muslims attained the anniversary of one of the greatest miracle of Muhammed, Mi’raj. Mi’raj mean ascension. That miracle consist of two stages. The first part is Isra(Night Journey) and the second part is Mi’raj(ascension). In Isra Muhammed was taken from Mecca to Jerusalem. And in Mi’raj Muhammed was ascended to Heavens. Through that ascension Muhammed saw Paradise, Hell and further and beyond of these Kursiyy, Arsh-ı A’zam(The Highest Throne) and Sidrat-ul Muntaha(The last point of entity). Muhammed turn back through same way. All those cases happened in a short time of night. Here one of website about that miracle:

questionsonislam.com/…/miracle-isra-nig…

The Miracle of Mi’raj prove importance of prophet Muhammed because non of previous prophet were recipient of such thing. Jesus were ascended but Jesus did not go beyond of Heavens.

Sorry for coming late to this party. Just like to bring us back to the original post on this thread.

Muslims indeed see the night journey as a glorious miracle. As great a miracle as the other great miracle of the Prophet, his reception of the Quran from the angel Jibril. Both these miracles form the basis for his claim to the prophethood.

But have you noticed, that there are no eye-witness to both these events other than Mohammad himself. If he were ever charged in a syariah court, how would he be able to substantiate his claims without the testimony of two upright Muslims as required by the law? (Ok, OK, it is true because the Quran says so)

Contrast this to Jesus’ claim to divinity, where there are many who can testify to meeting him after his resurrection. If Christianity is not true, many many people must have lied.

I have the highest regards for the sincerity of Muslims but you choose the religion based on your values. Again, the difference between values underpinning the religions: one whose claims are derived from eyewitness accounts, facts and historical context. The other is right because it says so.

 

[jimkhong]

The Miracle of Mi’raj prove importance of prophet Muhammed because non of previous prophet were recipient of such thing. Jesus were ascended but Jesus did not go beyond of Heavens.

I just realised some potential misunderstanding seemingly evidently in your use of language. Please accept my apologies for being presumptuous for trying to teach someone English on this forum.

There is no such term as ‘were ascended’ in English. ‘Ascended’ is an active verb, not a passive word. It means that Jesus ascended into heaven under his own power, unlike Mary, who assumed into heaven, meaning by someone else. This is because Jesus is God, and so do not require any external power to bring him to heaven.

Here, I am assuming that you are contrasting Muslim’s account of the Night Journey with Christian claims regarding the position of Jesus. If so, just to correct you, not only Jesus ascended into heaven under his own power because that was the fate he determined for himself (unlike Mohammad’s journey to heaven on a flying white horse and whose itinerary & objective of the journey was determined by someone other than himself). Also that we believe that he is now seated at the right hand of the Father. I don’t think there can be any position higher than that, much closer than being in the highest of the seven heavens.

If you are trying to contrast the position of Mohammad and Isa in the Quran, however, here are some contrasts in Muslim teachings that you may have missed out:

1. Mohammad’s journey was for one night only (even, that scholars debate whether it was a physical journey or a spiritual/dream journey). Whereas the Quran states that Isa is physically in heaven (Allah brought Isa up to himself) and Muslims believe he is still in heaven.
2. Mohammad is now dead (you can see his tomb in Medina) whereas the Quran is clear Isa did not die a physical death.
3. Mohammad had to wait until he was 40 before being a prophet & had to wait for 23 years to receive the revelation from God in bits & pieces whereas Isa spoke as a baby in the cradle that he has been made a prophet already and has already received the revelation from God - as 2 day old baby.
4. Mohammad was born a normal human birth whereas Isa had a supernatural birth, being born of a virgin.
5. Mohammad’s main significant miracle (other than the Night Journey and his reception of the Quran, which were more something done to him as a passive recipient rather than something he did as an active agent) was the splitting of the moon whereas Isa raised people from the dead.
6. Mohammad’s titles in the Quran are more of being an agent of God whereas Isa’s titles include Roh Allah (Spirit of God) and Kalimat Allah (Word of God), both of which implies an active role in the divinity/divine action if not being divine himself.

[Many more if you want me to go on, but with a lack of space, let me jump to what I find to be a clinching point]

1. Mohammad said that his fate is in Allah’s hands and that Isa will come among us all to judge the living and the dead. Meaning that Isa will be judging Mohammad at the end of time. So, really who is greater - the judge or the judged?

The claim to Mohammad being the greatest of the prophets is because the Quran explicitly said so. If you were to put that aside and look at the facts as stated in the Quran, it is hard to ignore the fact that Isa is greater than Mohammad.

Of course, Muslims can claim and interpret otherwise using much linguistic acrobatics but for Christians, who derived our dogma from facts and logic, we just have to accept Muslim values are that their dogma (conclusion) comes first and all interpretation, facts and logic are subservient to that dogma: those contradicting that dogma being deemed invalid simply because it contradicts that dogma.

 

[hasantas]

Sorry for coming late to this party. Just like to bring us back to the original post on this thread.

Muslims indeed see the night journey as a glorious miracle. As great a miracle as the other great miracle of the Prophet, his reception of the Quran from the angel Jibril. Both these miracles form the basis for his claim to the prophethood.

But have you noticed, that there are no eye-witness to both these events other than Mohammad himself. If he were ever charged in a syariah court, how would he be able to substantiate his claims without the testimony of two upright Muslims as required by the law? (Ok, OK, it is true because the Quran says so)

Contrast this to Jesus’ claim to divinity, where there are many who can testify to meeting him after his resurrection. If Christianity is not true, many many people must have lied.

I have the highest regards for the sincerity of Muslims but you choose the religion based on your values. Again, the difference between values underpinning the religions: one whose claims are derived from eyewitness accounts, facts and historical context. The other is right because it says so.

There are hundreds miracles of prophet Muhammed. How you say hudreds people saw miracles from Jesus like that hundreds people saw miracles from Muhammed with their eyes. Most of miracles were reported in Hadiths. If you claim that Hadiths are not trustable sources well then we can assert same thing for Gospels. Because Gospels and Hadiths are equal in the way of being reported.

 

[jimkhong]

There are hundreds miracles of prophet Muhammed. How you say hudreds people saw miracles from Jesus like that hundreds people saw miracles from Muhammed with their eyes. Most of miracles were reported in Hadiths. If you claim that Hadiths are not trustable sources well then we can assert same thing for Gospels. Because Gospels and Hadiths are equal in the way of being reported.

Sorry for being very disappointed, but that’s rather disingenuous of you to equate Gospel with Hadith. If you wish to engage with Christians on our terms, then you will have to equate our Gospels at the same level as your Quran. To do otherwise, would mean that it would be acceptable for Christians to equate your Quran to our heretical gospels.

I think some respect is called for here. If I accept that you regard your Quran as genuine scriptures whether I agree or not, I would expect you to accept that we regard the Gospels as genuine scripture, whether you agree or not. If you insist on us regarding ourselves based on how you see us, what basis is there for any inter-religious dialogue? Would it just be you trying to justify your position or convert Christians rather than a sincere attempt to understand the Christian position.

I am happy to discuss with you on the basis of your beliefs, using your scriptures in the manner you are used to reading them. Please don’t expect me to read my scriptures in the way that you expect to regard them yourself.

At the end of the day, it would seem that you are unable to respond to my points other than by insisting that you are right without providing any basis. If that is the case, we will have to look for someone else sincere to engage with. My search continues.

 

[jimkhong]

There are hundreds miracles of prophet Muhammed. How you say hudreds people saw miracles from Jesus like that hundreds people saw miracles from Muhammed with their eyes. Most of miracles were reported in Hadiths. If you claim that Hadiths are not trustable sources well then we can assert same thing for Gospels. Because Gospels and Hadiths are equal in the way of being reported.

I will make one last attempt out of sincerity. Maybe, I am not explaining as well as I would like to

Mohammad claim to be a prophet is based on (let’s ignore the miracles, since those were not his claim to prophethood) the following two events

1. the Night journey - how many eyewitnesses are there for this Night journey other than Mohammad himself, according to Islamic sources. How many other people saw it whose testimony would be usable in a syariah court?
2. receiving the Quran from the angel Jibril - how many eyewitnesses are there for what happened in the Hira cave other than Mohammad himself, according to Islamic sources. How many other people saw it whose testimony would be usable in a syariah court?

Jesus claim to divinity is based on his resurrection from the dead. According to Christian sources, hundreds testified to seeing him alive after his crucifixion, including some who testified unchallenged in Jewish Sanhedrin. I will ignore his other miracles because his claims of divinity is not based on his miracles other than his resurrection.

 

[hasantas]

=jimkhong;13023006]

…

Wellcome!

My English is poor and I try so much to improve.

Jesus was ascended because God raised Him.

Muslims believe that Muhammed is the most great prophet. As prophethood all prophets are equal but in some spesific values some prophets could be more great than others. And also Jesus is one of the most great prophet. Every child say that his father is most great so everyone could say my prophet is the most great.

İmportance of Muhammed is not only through His miracles but also by the work He achieved. His religion could keep the right form of faith as “Tawhid”.

1. Mohammad’s journey was for one night only (even, that scholars debate whether it was a physical journey or a spiritual/dream journey). Whereas the Quran states that Isa is physically in heaven (Allah brought Isa up to himself) and Muslims believe he is still in heaven.

Most of scholars say that journey was both by body and sould as awake. There are seven categories of heavens and Jesus is in the third with Idris with their bodies. Moses is in the sixth and Abraham is in the seventh. And Muhammed go beyond of all these categories.

1. Mohammad is now dead (you can see his tomb in Medina) whereas the Quran is clear Isa did not die a physical death.

Qur’an also say Jesus will die like others. Jesus will come back on the world and He will die just like orher humans.

1. Mohammad had to wait until he was 40 before being a prophet & had to wait for 23 years to receive the revelation from God in bits & pieces whereas Isa spoke as a baby in the cradle that he has been made a prophet already and has already received the revelation from God - as 2 day old baby.

There have been many miracles close to birth of Muhammed and there have been many miracles when Muhammed came to world. Muhammed have many miracles while He was child and before being prophet. All these are written in history. Anyone can look.

Jesus did work as a prophet for about 3 years but Muhammed did that for 23 years. Verses were revealed step by step so Muslims could take and perform. That was very useful way of revelation. Now we have a rule for every part of life in religion because Muhammed taught through His life.

1. Mohammad was born a normal human birth whereas Isa had a supernatural birth, being born of a virgin.

And also Adam was born(created) more supernaturaly without any father and mother!

1. Mohammad’s main significant miracle (other than the Night Journey and his reception of the Quran, which were more something done to him as a passive recipient rather than something he did as an active agent) was the splitting of the moon whereas Isa raised people from the dead.

Some deads talked by prophethood of Muhammed. Muhammed performed hundreds of miracles but not only two. Most of miracles were recorded in Hadiths.

1. Mohammad’s titles in the Quran are more of being an agent of God whereas Isa’s titles include Roh Allah (Spirit of God) and Kalimat Allah (Word of God), both of which implies an active role in the divinity/divine action if not being divine himself.

[Many more if you want me to go on, but with a lack of space, let me jump to what I find to be a clinching point]

Muhammed is Habibullah(beloved of God). Here Muhammed in Qur’an:

31- Say, [O Muhammad], “If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.” Ali-Imran

106-Indeed, in this [Qur’an] is notification for a worshipping people.

107-And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. Al-Anbiya

21-There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often. Al-Ahzab

40- Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. Al-Ahzab

28- And We have not sent you except comprehensively to mankind as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. But most of the people do not know. Saba’

4-And indeed, you are of a great moral character. Al-Qalam

1. Mohammad said that his fate is in Allah’s hands and that Isa will come among us all to judge the living and the dead. Meaning that Isa will be judging Mohammad at the end of time. So, really who is greater - the judge or the judged?

Muhammed informed that Jesus will be a great judge when He will come on the world again. Jesus will judge people not prophet Muhammed. Especially Jesus will judge Christians because they claim uncertain things about Jesus.

The claim to Mohammad being the greatest of the prophets is because the Quran explicitly said so. If you were to put that aside and look at the facts as stated in the Quran, it is hard to ignore the fact that Isa is greater than Mohammad.

Of course, Muslims can claim and interpret otherwise using much linguistic acrobatics but for Christians, who derived our dogma from facts and logic, we just have to accept Muslim values are that their dogma (conclusion) comes first and all interpretation, facts and logic are subservient to that dogma: those contradicting that dogma being deemed invalid simply because it contradicts that dogma

.

All prophet had a high character. Charecters of Muhammed were most high. And you do not derive your doctrines from logic and facts but from mysteries and Church.

 

[hasantas]

=jimkhong;13023305]I will make one last attempt out of sincerity. Maybe, I am not explaining as well as I would like to

Mohammad claim to be a prophet is based on (let’s ignore the miracles, since those were not his claim to prophethood) the following two events

1. the Night journey - how many eyewitnesses are there for this Night journey other than Mohammad himself, according to Islamic sources. How many other people saw it whose testimony would be usable in a syariah court?

Muhammed saw caravans of pagans on the way to Mecca during journey and sait that those caravans will arrive in Mecca some days later. And prophet Muhammed told about details of caravans even color of camels. All knowledges which Muhammed informed had occured rightly. That is enough for sharia laws.

1. receiving the Quran from the angel Jibril - how many eyewitnesses are there for what happened in the Hira cave other than Mohammad himself, according to Islamic sources. How many other people saw it whose testimony would be usable in a syariah court?

You claim as if Muhammed only took revelation in a cave. That was the beginning. Later Sahabas were witness of coming of revelation in Mecca and in Medina. If they did not saw rcoming of revelation or other facts from Muhammed they would not believe in Him. People were so difficult in that times.

Jesus claim to divinity is based on his resurrection from the dead. According to Christian sources, hundreds testified to seeing him alive after his crucifixion, including some who testified unchallenged in Jewish Sanhedrin. I will ignore his other miracles because his claims of divinity is not based on his miracles other than his resurrection.

Jesus was not crucifixed and He was ascended after crucifixion some days later. Some other was crucifixed instead Jesus. And also every human will have resurrection by God.

 

[jimkhong]

Muhammed saw caravans of pagans on the way to Mecca during journey and sait that those caravans will arrive in Mecca some days later. And prophet Muhammed told about details of caravans even color of camels. All knowledges which Muhammed informed had occured rightly. That is enough for sharia laws.

You claim as if Muhammed only took revelation in a cave. That was the beginning. Later Sahabas were witness of coming of revelation in Mecca and in Medina. If they did not saw rcoming of revelation or other facts from Muhammed they would not believe in Him. People were so difficult in that times.

Jesus was not crucifixed and He was ascended after crucifixion some days later. Some other was crucifixed instead Jesus. And also every human will have resurrection by God.

I think you are missing much of the point. Do not judge us by your standards and your claims.

It really is not much of a point for you to insist that Jesus was not crucified when we believe that he did. I am happy to discuss with you your scriptures based on how you read them. If you are sincere in discussing with us, you must refer to our scriptures the way we read them, not the way you read them.

So, I will have to ask what is the point of you being in this forum. If you are sincere in wanting to know about what Christians think because you are curious, not necessarily because you want to convert (and not because you are looking for ways to counter arguments), I will be happy to engage with you to explain with no intention at all to convert you. But you will need understand how we read our scriptures, which is a very different way compared to the way you read your Quran.

If you only intend to push your ideas forward and insist that we should accept your views as correct. then I am sorry this is not the forum for you. Your mind is closed and you are not sincere. In which case, then I will not engage with you anymore. Not even to point out what we see are your errors as there is no point.

So, tell us: do you wish to prove to Christians that you are right or did you join a Catholic Forum to learn what Christians believe and how we think so that it can enrich you faith as a Muslim? I am not willing to engage any further until I have an answer to this question because it is futile.

 

[jimkhong]

Of course, I hope Catholics and other Christians who are interested, continue to engage. I have learned if one is an apologist for the faith, one must know the mindset of those who form the context in which the faith is being explained. In my country, with our young people constantly being under pressure to convert to Islam due to political reasons, apologetics within an Islamic context is key and we need to understand the mindset from which Muslims make the assertions they use to convert our youths.

I have come to understand much of this mindset and identify the differences in values that lead Muslims and Christians to differing conclusions. I started my journey thinking that we are all cousins, being children of Abraham and that it was just an accident of birth that I was not Muslim. Now I realised that I am not Muslim because of fundamental differences in my values. If I have a different set of values, maybe I would be Muslim but not with the set of values I now hold. I do not begrudge those who are Muslims because their values are such and I do not think lesser of them. I can continue to engage with them if they are sincere but I cannot be Muslim, that’s all.

Sorry for this little tirade but it is sometimes hard to continue to look upon those who threaten the existence of your church, with eyes of love as Jesus taught us to love those who hate us, while still holding to the universal principles of fairness and truth.

I would ask for prayers from you all that our apologists can continue to defend our faith using the Gospel of Love and not respond to hatred and anger with anger.

 

[TruthBearer]

Sorry for being very disappointed, but that’s rather disingenuous of you to equate Gospel with Hadith. If you wish to engage with Christians on our terms, then you will have to equate our Gospels at the same level as your Quran.

The Gospels of Jesus are equal to the Hadiths of Muhammad in almost every way.