The Glorious Mysteries

  • Thread starter Thread starter Faith1960
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

Faith1960

Guest
I’ve been wondering about the last two Glorious Mysteries while praying the Rosary. I’m having trouble understanding the Assumption and Coronation of Mary.
  1. Mary’s Assumption was in her glorified body, correct? If so, it makes more sense to me than her being Assumed in an earthly body like ours, but then I come to the Coronation of Mary.
  2. Was Mary’s Coronation and being crowned Queen in Heaven a literal event, with her being given a literal tiara, sitting on a literal chair (a.k.a. throne), much like that of Queen Elizabeth who was crowned with a literal tiara on top of her head and who sat on a literal throne? Is Mary’s Coronation a literal event or a symbolic story?
  3. I’m still trying to understand where Mary’s glorified body and Heaven actually are. Our astronauts have explored space and so far Mary and Jesus haven’t been seen, so I’m fairly certain I’m misunderstanding something. Where exactly is Heaven, Mary and Jesus?
 
Faith1960 said:
I’ve been wondering about the last two Glorious Mysteries while praying the Rosary. I’m having trouble understanding the Assumption and Coronation of Mary.
  1. Mary’s Assumption was in her glorified body, correct? If so, it makes more sense to me than her being Assumed in an earthly body like ours, but then I come to the Coronation of Mary.
  2. Was Mary’s Coronation and being crowned Queen in Heaven a literal event, with her being given a literal tiara, sitting on a literal chair (a.k.a. throne), much like that of Queen Elizabeth who was crowned with a literal tiara on top of her head and who sat on a literal throne? Is Mary’s Coronation a literal event or a symbolic story?
  3. I’m still trying to understand where Mary’s glorified body and Heaven actually are. Our astronauts have explored space and so far Mary and Jesus haven’t been seen, so I’m fairly certain I’m misunderstanding something. Where exactly is Heaven, Mary and Jesus?
Click to expand...
I think what is native to all your questions is the attempt to understand each matter scientifically. That can make theological matters confusing because they are typically not understood as such. But let me try to help each point:
  1. The document on the Assumption is Munificentissimus Deus. Although not part of the dogma of the Assumption, the Church does suggest Mary experienced temporal death (#17, 21), but that her body did not experience corruption (20). We know that she went from point A to point B. At point B, she is glorified in heaven (20). The Church does not have a teaching on the physical mechanics of the matter as far as I know. I think of Pope Benedict when he was Cardinal Ratzinger speaking on the idea that Purgatory takes x amount of time. He said, Purgatory “cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive.” Similarly, I think if we try to impose measurements of physics onto the Assumption, we are straying from the theological truth at hand.
  2. The Church neither has a teaching on the physicality of a tiara on Mary’s head in heaven. But I tend to think that imagery, which is what humans understand as Queenship, is what communicates to us her Queenship, not that she necessarily must wear a physical crown somewhere in a chair. She is literally queen, but we needn’t insist in order for that to be a reality that she must have a crown forged out of gold from the periodic table.
  3. Same thing here. Heaven is not taught by the Church as having a particular geographic coordinate. You can’t “find” it because it exists after death. Theologically speaking, the Catechism states this:*CCC#2802 "Who art in heaven" does not refer to a place but to God’s majesty and his presence in the hearts of the just. Heaven, the Father’s house, is the true homeland toward which we are heading and to which, already, we belong.*Again, I’m not aware of the Church imposing a specific diagram of what heaven is, other than the presence of God’s love, to be “with” Him, to experience Him, etc…
 
Faith1960 said:
  1. Was Mary’s Coronation and being crowned Queen in Heaven a literal event, with her being given a literal tiara, sitting on a literal chair (a.k.a. throne), much like that of Queen Elizabeth who was crowned with a literal tiara on top of her head and who sat on a literal throne? Is Mary’s Coronation a literal event or a symbolic story?
Click to expand...
Personally I think it’s more of a symbolic portrayal emphasizing the queenship of Mary. I mean, I don’t know the physics of Heaven, but I think that to think of it in purely ‘physical’ terms - Mary walking or hovering up to the literal divine ‘throne room’ for a literal coronation ceremony involving a literal crown, just like how the artists have depicted it - kind of robs it of that special something.
 
Faith1960 said:
I’ve been wondering about the last two Glorious Mysteries while praying the Rosary. I’m having trouble understanding the Assumption and Coronation of Mary.
  1. Mary’s Assumption was in her glorified body, correct? If so, it makes more sense to me than her being Assumed in an earthly body like ours, but then I come to the Coronation of Mary.
  2. Was Mary’s Coronation and being crowned Queen in Heaven a literal event, with her being given a literal tiara, sitting on a literal chair (a.k.a. throne), much like that of Queen Elizabeth who was crowned with a literal tiara on top of her head and who sat on a literal throne? Is Mary’s Coronation a literal event or a symbolic story?
  3. I’m still trying to understand where Mary’s glorified body and Heaven actually are. Our astronauts have explored space and so far Mary and Jesus haven’t been seen, so I’m fairly certain I’m misunderstanding something. Where exactly is Heaven, Mary and Jesus?
Click to expand...
  1. CCC 966 – "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians…
  2. Given that the Blessed Virgin was taken up into heaven directly from her earthly and bodily existence, She would immediately be in the presence of God, whose kingdom is not subject to time unless He so desires it to be. According the CCC, it is implicit that She did not undergo purgatory because of the sanctity of her life - the perfect model of all virtues to which all men can only aspire. The Blessed Virgin is above all Saints in heaven as the Holy Mother of God, the first tabernacle in the truest sense. God chose her out of all eternity to bear a son named Jesus, our eternal redeemer.
  3. One shouldn’t waste what little time one has on earth (to make his or her best effort to attain eternal life, living “face to face” with God) trying to track down a physical location of God and/or heaven. You will not find it. That’s the gift that can only be realized after a life lived in accordance with the will and mercy of God.
Pax.

J.M.J.
 
Fan_of_Trent said:
  1. One shouldn’t waste what little time one has on earth (to make his or her best effort to attain eternal life, living “face to face” with God) trying to track down a physical location of God and/or heaven. You will not find it. That’s the gift that can only be realized after a life lived in accordance with the will and mercy of God.
Pax.

J.M.J.
Click to expand...
Good point.
 
Faith1960 said:
I’ve been wondering about the last two Glorious Mysteries while praying the Rosary. I’m having trouble understanding the Assumption and Coronation of Mary.
  1. Mary’s Assumption was in her glorified body, correct? If so, it makes more sense to me than her being Assumed in an earthly body like ours, but then I come to the Coronation of Mary.
  2. Was Mary’s Coronation and being crowned Queen in Heaven a literal event, with her being given a literal tiara, sitting on a literal chair (a.k.a. throne), much like that of Queen Elizabeth who was crowned with a literal tiara on top of her head and who sat on a literal throne? Is Mary’s Coronation a literal event or a symbolic story?
  3. I’m still trying to understand where Mary’s glorified body and Heaven actually are. Our astronauts have explored space and so far Mary and Jesus haven’t been seen, so I’m fairly certain I’m misunderstanding something. Where exactly is Heaven, Mary and Jesus?
Click to expand...
I agree with all the above answers. There a lot of things about this in the Church. I know very little as I unable to read or study much. Whatever little I know about the Church and the Word, I have pondered and that will try to put it down in my own words as best as I can.
  1. Yeah, Mary by her life totally obedient to God, preserved from all sin, persevered always her with eyes gazed toward’s Christ, her son, her heart ever pondering on His words and action, right from His conception, childhood, boyhood, public life, passion, death, burial and resurrection. This did transform her soul, mind and body, so much so that when Christ rose from death and she was also found to be perfected, reflecting all His glory, ready to be Assumed into heaven.
  2. Because she was such great a and glorious example, perfected to fullest potential a human being can ever be when he cooperates with God and being so much full of God (the entire Trinity) , it was God’s pleasure to crown her. He did so that we may find her to be of great help. Her life model to imitate, her spiritual beauty and glory to rejoice in, an excellent intercessor we can rely on, and her virginal motherly love (the presence of the Holy Spirit) in which the sons of men may bask in as they are transformed day by day into sons of God.
The event was not earthly, although faintly parallel to it. It would be much glorious and a much higher event. It is a spiritual event, we can only imagine with God with all his holy angels, saints, etc., each with glory different to other in various degrees of beauty and brightness, the spiritual music, the spiritual sights, etc., and the glorious presence of God whom the most glorious of cherubs or angels find difficulty to bear. The Blessed Virgin in their midst glorified by God in special way that could be compared to a crowning ceremony in our physical world.
  1. These things are noble and spiritual, not physical. We cannot search God or find his presence using our naked eyes or senses in the entire universe. Faith is the starting switch that will open yourselves to God and His world, and make visible to you what is invisible.
To get this very basic thing started in your life, I can recommend that you sincerely attend a Catholic “Life in the Spirit Seminar” or a Charismatic Retreat.
 
MarcoPolo said:
I think what is native to all your questions is the attempt to understand each matter scientifically. That can make theological matters confusing because they are typically not understood as such. But let me try to help each point:
  1. The Church neither has a teaching on the physicality of a tiara on Mary’s head in heaven. But I tend to think that imagery, which is what humans understand as Queenship, is what communicates to us her Queenship, not that she necessarily must wear a physical crown somewhere in a chair. She is literally queen, but we needn’t insist in order for that to be a reality that she must have a crown forged out of gold from the periodic table.
  2. Same thing here. Heaven is not taught by the Church as having a particular geographic coordinate. You can’t “find” it because it exists after death. Theologically speaking, the Catechism states this:CCC#2802 "Who art in heaven" does not refer to a place but to God’s majesty and his presence in the hearts of the just. Heaven, the Father’s house, is the true homeland toward which we are heading and to which, already, we belong.Again, I’m not aware of the Church imposing a specific diagram of what heaven is, other than the presence of God’s love, to be “with” Him, to experience Him, etc…
Click to expand...
So, is it fair to say that you agree with Patrick, that the details on Mary’s Coronation is symbolic?

Can you please be more specific on your opinion of the location of Heaven? :o
 
I’m still confused by this whole topic. Especially after a brief conversation I had with one of my Bible Study teachers this morning. I asked her these questions and she said that Heaven “isn’t a place but a state of mind.” She also has said during some of our classes, including the one today, that “Jesus and Mary’s bodies are in Heaven”. Uh…they can’t be located in a state of mind. :rolleyes:
 
To say it is pure symbolism is to discount the mystery into a respresentation apart from what consists in prayer that is loving. I will not give my reasoning for this assertion. But there are two terms to consider, being and form.

We do not relate to God in forms as we do among the causes of the earth. We can communicate these forms to Him or to Mary, and there is no lack of appreciation of what they consist in. But we relate more to God in consquence of being rather then by form. This goes to show for the questions given by Faith1960. I suggest to this person to study metaphysics from a truely Catholic perspective (Aristotle and S. Thomas Aquinas). This might not be a solution, for the force of reason is not primary to convict the will of a believer. But it will bring clarity if only this person dive into the terms and make them real in her mind and assent to the truth of them. Here is a web site that gives this coursework, rather textbook for free: josephkenny.joyeurs.com/2012/Metaphysics.htm
 
Faith1960 said:
I’m still confused by this whole topic. Especially after a brief conversation I had with one of my Bible Study teachers this morning. I asked her these questions and she said that Heaven “isn’t a place but a state of mind.” She also has said during some of our classes, including the one today, that “Jesus and Mary’s bodies are in Heaven”. Uh…they can’t be located in a state of mind. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I agree; that “state of mind” explanation is sterile and unsatisfactory. I believe it is indeed a place, but not a place in our physical sense of space and time, but rather a spiritual space which is fully real to the glorified body of Jesus and the Virgin Mary --and us as well, God willing, at the end of time. Jesus speaks of preparing “A PLACE” for the Apostles when he is about to Ascend to Heaven. He also speaks of His Father’s HOUSE having MANY MANSIONS. These are concrete terms, not so much because there is literally a gigantic HOUSE of God floating up in the Galaxy somewhere, but because they are REAL (just as real, or more real than it would be in our temporal world,) to the glorified body that will occupy them (at the end of time) and even now, for the Virgin Mary and Jesus our King.

So the Catechism is right when it says it is not a place, at least not as we define a place in this life and in this world, BUT it IS a PLACE as we shall experience it in the next life.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
I agree; that “state of mind” explanation is sterile and unsatisfactory. I believe it is indeed a place, but not a place in our physical sense of space and time, but rather a spiritual space which is fully real to the glorified body of Jesus and the Virgin Mary --and us as well, God willing, at the end of time. Jesus speaks of preparing “A PLACE” for the Apostles when he is about to Ascend to Heaven. He also speaks of His Father’s HOUSE having MANY MANSIONS. These are concrete terms, not so much because there is literally a gigantic HOUSE of God floating up in the Galaxy somewhere, but because they are REAL (just as real, or more real than it would be in our temporal world,) to the glorified body that will occupy them (at the end of time) and even now, for the Virgin Mary and Jesus our King.

So the Catechism is right when it says it is not a place, at least not as we define a place in this life and in this world, BUT it IS a PLACE as we shall experience it in the next life.
Click to expand...
Now we’re getting somewhere. Could you please elaborate a little more, if you can, about how a spiritual space differs from our mortals’ view and idea of house?
 
[Bibledrb]1 Corinthians 2:9-10[/bibledrb]

It wouldn’t be possible for me to give you an idea of the difference between how a spiritual space differs from our mortals’ view and idea of house, since it is beyond anything we can know in this life. But it is worthwhile to meditate on the things of Heaven, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, you may come to a better understanding. Particularly, pay close attention to what the Bible says, in the words of our Lord and Savior. 🙂

Here’s an example; how would you explain to a baby in the womb, what the world is like “out here?” The baby doesn’t have any reference points, language abilities or experience to draw from. It is sufficient for the baby to wait and see. That is how it will be for us, I believe. There is no way to communicate Heavenly things properly in this life. But Jesus uses terms that we can relate to because they are real. This life is one of shadows and smoke. Appearances are deceiving, fleeting, and in decay. The Kingdom of Heaven is NONE of those things.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
[Bibledrb]1 Corinthians 2:9-10[/bibledrb]

It wouldn’t be possible for me to give you an idea of the difference between how a spiritual space differs from our mortals’ view and idea of house, since it is beyond anything we can know in this life.
Click to expand...
To borrow a quote from another thread, “Where Is Jesus?” a poster explained Jesus’ existence this way: <<<<,"He’s not in time, since HE left time behind with the entropy of His dead human body; the pneumatikon soma has no time. We do not see HIM because seeing requires light reflection from the body; and earthly light requires time to travel.

We will see HIM just fine when we too are pneumatikon soma, and can see in Eternity.">>>>

Is it fair to explain it this way, that Heaven a spiritual home that occupies glorified bodies rather than a house with bricks and mortar which we, as humans think of when we talk about a home?
 
Hello this is my first post on CAF, I thought I might have some insight (albeit limited)on this topic since I pray the Rosary daily.

Faith1960, regarding the tiara that you seek. If I’m not mistaken Rosarii in Latin translates as Crown of Roses. So, we are holding the symbol of Our Lady’s crown as we pray. And how wonder full that her crown is made up of the events and teachings (mysteries) of her baby boy.
I made the comparison that (I’m sure I’m not alone in this comparison), As our Lord was given a crown of thorns as a symbol of his kingdom, he grave his mother a crown of roses as a symbol of their kingdom. And you can never have a rose without thorns. ((((Insert Guns & Roses chorus here))) 😉

Thus, “to Jesus through Mary”

Btw AmbroseSJ that comparison about a baby in a womb and heaven was impressive!! Worthy (in my humble opinion) of being labeled a parable.

Be well…
 
Heaven is not a physical place in the Cosmos (Universe); Heaven is outside of the Universe, outside of space and time (just as God, who is Infinite, is outside of/beyond space and time). Heaven is union with God. As I have read, Heaven, though we cannot see it or observe it with our senses, is “all around us”, not “far away” or “in the sky.” The saints and the dead are, in some sense, closer to us than we are to each other while living.

“The meaning of Christ’s Ascension expresses our belief that in Christ the humanity that we all share has entered into the inner life of God in a new and hitherto unheard of way. It means that man has found an everlasting place in God. It would be a mistake to interpret the Ascension as the temporary absence of Christ from the world. Rather, we go to heaven to the extent that we go to Jesus Christ and enter into Him. Heaven is a Person; Jesus Himself is what we call ‘heaven.’ ” – Pope Benedict the XVI

Heaven is more of a state of total union with and in God. It is not a place the way we think of a place, which is bound by space and time. Unfortunately/fortunately, the human mind cannot comprehend or fathom anything outside of space and time; it is a concept – a reality – beyond our ability to understand or think about. Yes, we use limited human language to try and express it – a mansion with many rooms, for instance – but these are hints and shadows of the true reality, and not the reality itself.
 
MaidoftheWood said:
Heaven is not a physical place in the Cosmos (Universe); Heaven is outside of the Universe, outside of space and time (just as God, who is Infinite, is outside of/beyond space and time). Heaven is union with God. As I have read, Heaven, though we cannot see it or observe it with our senses, is “all around us”, not “far away” or “in the sky.” The saints and the dead are, in some sense, closer to us than we are to each other while living.

“The meaning of Christ’s Ascension expresses our belief that in Christ the humanity that we all share has entered into the inner life of God in a new and hitherto unheard of way. It means that man has found an everlasting place in God. It would be a mistake to interpret the Ascension as the temporary absence of Christ from the world. Rather, we go to heaven to the extent that we go to Jesus Christ and enter into Him. Heaven is a Person; Jesus Himself is what we call ‘heaven.’ ” – Pope Benedict the XVI

Heaven is more of a state of total union with and in God. It is not a place the way we think of a place, which is bound by space and time. Unfortunately/fortunately, the human mind cannot comprehend or fathom anything outside of space and time; it is a concept – a reality – beyond our ability to understand or think about. Yes, we use limited human language to try and express it – a mansion with many rooms, for instance – but these are hints and shadows of the true reality, and not the reality itself.
Click to expand...
I’m more confused than ever. Sorry.:o How can it not be a physical place when, 1) Revelation talks about it as such, and, 2) Jesus and Mary’s glorified BODIES are there?
 
I think your difficulty is in thinking that because a thing is physical, it must be bound by space. This is not so; Jesus’ and Mary’s glorified bodies are not bound (limited, constrained or contained) by time or space; so all of our limitations as earthly humans – limitations in movement, senses, can only be in one place at one time, etc – do not apply to them. I did some searching, and I think this might help you understand better: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-heaven-a-place-or-only-a-state-of-mind

An excerpt from the link:
You are right that the Bible refers to “heavenly places.” We must keep in mind that time and space are finite concepts; God is not bound by them, nor could God live in one physical place, as we think of it, because the physical universe is his creation and cannot contain him. Heaven is a place, but not a particular space.
Click to expand...
Hopefully this helps you! It’s hard for anyone to express the inexpressible in finite human words. 😊

Just remember that you are trying awfully hard to fit Heaven into a finite (limited) concept in your mind, something you can understand and think about, like something in the natural world that can be measured and studied, etc. But we can’t do that. Heaven by definition is beyond our earthly comprehension. Much like other doctrines, such as the Triune nature of God, Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, and Mary being both Virgin and Mother, it is a sacred Mystery. We do our best to express what we know in human terms, which is where symbolic language and imagery comes in, but must accept that we can never express the fullness of the reality.
 
MaidoftheWood said:
I think your difficulty is in thinking that because a thing is physical, it must be bound by space. This is not so; Jesus’ and Mary’s glorified bodies are not bound (limited, constrained or contained) by time or space; so all of our limitations as earthly humans – limitations in movement, senses, can only be in one place at one time, etc – do not apply to them. I did some searching, and I think this might help you understand better: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-heaven-a-place-or-only-a-state-of-mind
Click to expand...
I’d read that article earlier today after finding it on Google and, it didn’t help me;it just made me feel stupid. :o
If Jesus and Mary’s bodies aren’t bound by space, then again, where are they?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top