"The God Delusion"

[Michaeljc4]

I recently read Richard Dawkins’s The God Delusion. To say that this book has shaken my faith is a wild understatement. Some of what Dawkins says is predictable: in his moral confusion, he thinks and believes many confused, moronic things about reality (I won’t list them here). His book–well written and very powerful–ends up showing how lost someone can become when they have no objective source of morality.

With that said, it was his attack on sacred scripture that has left me cold. Essentially, after reading his work, I find it hard to believe that the Bible is authoritative. Viewing the Bible with the lens of pure reason makes it much less…believable, I guess.

I have thought this myself before, but the Dawkins book really brought it to the forefront of my mind: the God of the Old Testament is completely different than the God Jesus describes in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is evil, vindictive, jealous, war-like, and terrible. Only the most tortured reading of the Old Testament finds any support for the God of love Jesus describes with such passion and beauty.

I am forced to conclude that the God of the Bible is not who we have been taught to believe that He is. As I said, my faith in our Church’s teachings about sacred scripture–the foundation of my faith!–has been seriously shaken. How can I make this work out in my head again? I have stopped praying, stopped going to Church, and feel…I don’t know. Rudderless.

SOS

 

[retantion]

Not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe you stopped believing after reading the book because Dawkins is right, not because you’re reason is flawed for not believing in God.

 

[DoGodsBidding]

Read a book by someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Any book by Scott Hahn, for example.

DGB

 

[theidler]

Not sure what to say - if your faith is that weak that it can be shaken by the screeching polemics of someone like Dawkins, who is neither an authority in Biblical studies or anything even remotely close to being a philosopher, then maybe you should avoid reading anything that even remotely suggests a whiff of atheism for awhile .
Several atheist friends of mine agree that Dawkins is extremely poor in his argumentation, in his scholarship, and in pretty much everything else.
I have read through actually intelligent atheists like Sartre and Camus - I still have my faith. My mother has just gone through breast cancer. I have my faith. I lost my family. I have my faith. I was anti-Christian and attacked everything about the faith for many years. Guess what? I have my faith. I’ve gone through all the sites claiming all the Bible’s “inconsistencies” and all the rest right on down to Gnostic ideas too. I have my faith.

Don’t put your faith in the line of fire if it is weak and easily damaged friend. There are plenty of authors attacking the Scriptures out there - plenty also defending them.

Praying for you and others like you whose faith is being shaken by the barking of Dawkins and all the rest of these embarassing “new atheists”.

 

[theidler]

Read a book by someone who actually knows what they are talking about. Any book by Scott Hahn, for example.

DGB

Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker actually have a book called Dawkins Dismantled, and it is excellent.

 

[PJD1987]

Agree with theidler.

Thought I’d also add this link, just for starters: bibleleaguetrust.org/articles/A%20REBUTTAL%20OF%20RICHARD%20DAWKINS.PDF

 

[theidler]

Not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe you stopped believing after reading the book because Dawkins is right, not because you’re reason is flawed for not believing in God.

Dawkins is right? Most atheists I know think he’s a buffoon. I put about as much stock in Dawkins’ polemical work as I would a copy of Star Magazine.

 

[Luvtosew]

Its best not even to read stuff like that, as once you do it gets stuck in your head and hard to get it out. God Bless You and read some stuff the others have posted about.

 

[retantion]

Hitchens was better. Unfortunately he’s gone. Dawkins may or may not have excellent credentials (I honestly haven’t put my research into finding out what they are) but he is really just a figurehead if you will for atheists. He repeats the arguments used to refute religion in his own words and uses analogies and metaphors to explain the concepts. He may not be an authority, but that doesn’t mean the arguments are invalid.

 

[Link0126]

How can I make this work out in my head again? I have stopped praying, stopped going to Church, and feel…I don’t know. Rudderless.

Then choose to believe. Do you want to live in the atheistic world. With their worldview? Rudderless is the appropriate word.

“I believe Lord, help my unbelief”

 

[retantion]

Then choose to believe. Do you want to live in the atheistic world. With their worldview? Rudderless is the appropriate word.

“I believe Lord, help my unbelief”

Why do you say that atheists are rudderless?

 

[soylatte3]

I recently read Richard Dawkins’s The God Delusion. To say that this book has shaken my faith is a wild understatement. Some of what Dawkins says is predictable: in his moral confusion, he thinks and believes many confused, moronic things about reality (I won’t list them here). His book–well written and very powerful–ends up showing how lost someone can become when they have no objective source of morality.

With that said, it was his attack on sacred scripture that has left me cold. Essentially, after reading his work, I find it hard to believe that the Bible is authoritative. Viewing the Bible with the lens of pure reason makes it much less…believable, I guess.

I have thought this myself before, but the Dawkins book really brought it to the forefront of my mind: the God of the Old Testament is completely different than the God Jesus describes in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is evil, vindictive, jealous, war-like, and terrible. Only the most tortured reading of the Old Testament finds any support for the God of love Jesus describes with such passion and beauty.

I am forced to conclude that the God of the Bible is not who we have been taught to believe that He is. As I said, my faith in our Church’s teachings about sacred scripture–the foundation of my faith!–has been seriously shaken. How can I make this work out in my head again? I have stopped praying, stopped going to Church, and feel…I don’t know. Rudderless.

SOS

Hello - please know that you will be in my prayers. Keep seeking, keep searching. Our hearts are restless until we rest with God , as Saint Augustine says. It’s interesting how the atheists has taken a position to attack and belittle the beliefs of those who believe in God rather than sticking to their positions that we all are made of random material elements and a bundle of chemical reactions - and explain why things are that way.

I would recommend Patrick Madrid and Ken Hensley’s “Godless Delusion”.

I am more than just a bundle of material elements, connective-tissues and chemical reactions. My mind is different from my brain. I am intelligently-designed by The Great Designer. The one who created me in His image so that I can know Him and love Him.

Prayers for you. Keep seeking, keep searching. Saint Paul for me said it best when he said to the Corinthians (and guided by the Holy Spirit) " Eye has not seen. Ear has not heard, no mind can conceive what God has prepared for those who love Him."

Because the grace that God freely gives for us to have faith, can not been “seen” nor be “heard” nor be measured empirically.

God bless you.

 

[David89]

I havent read the book myself but many people have told me Dawkins arguments are actually very weak, and it helps to see this when someone points out the flaws in such arguments.

Being a reader I would recommend you read Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas which in a question and answer format goes through reasons for God, and he makes several rebuttals to potential counter-arguments.

Also there is a book by Patrik Madrid called “The Godless Delusion”. I havent read this book but Im sure its fantastic as Patrik is highly knowledgeable when I listen to him on Catholic Answers Live.

In fact perhaps ring up the apologist line or the show and ask them about some of the arguments presented and what your struggling with!

God bless you

 

[Julia_Mae]

I have thought this myself before, but the Dawkins book really brought it to the forefront of my mind: the God of the Old Testament is completely different than the God Jesus describes in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is evil, vindictive, jealous, war-like, and terrible. Only the most tortured reading of the Old Testament finds any support for the God of love Jesus describes with such passion and beauty.

The “God of the Old Testament” is a human’s eye view of God. The God of the New Testament is God Himself, showing Himself to us.

I’ll pit Dawkins against the Gospels any day.

 

[Safia]

I recently read Richard Dawkins’s The God Delusion. To say that this book has shaken my faith is a wild understatement. Some of what Dawkins says is predictable: in his moral confusion, he thinks and believes many confused, moronic things about reality (I won’t list them here). His book–well written and very powerful–ends up showing how lost someone can become when they have no objective source of morality.

With that said, it was his attack on sacred scripture that has left me cold. Essentially, after reading his work, I find it hard to believe that the Bible is authoritative. Viewing the Bible with the lens of pure reason makes it much less…believable, I guess.

I have thought this myself before, but the Dawkins book really brought it to the forefront of my mind: the God of the Old Testament is completely different than the God Jesus describes in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is evil, vindictive, jealous, war-like, and terrible. Only the most tortured reading of the Old Testament finds any support for the God of love Jesus describes with such passion and beauty.

I am forced to conclude that the God of the Bible is not who we have been taught to believe that He is. As I said, my faith in our Church’s teachings about sacred scripture–the foundation of my faith!–has been seriously shaken. How can I make this work out in my head again? I have stopped praying, stopped going to Church, and feel…I don’t know. Rudderless.

SOS

Michael, I haven’t read the book, but there are a few things I can say/suggest:

1. All philosophy is, first and foremost, semantics. Words. You can read these books, and their authors string together letters into words into sentences into paragraphs into chapters, and you, as others, may or may not believe them. The truth value of these words isn’t normative or reflective of reality. It’s impossible for anyone to ascribe words to reality, for no one understands it fully, and we will never do so, until God grants us the grace to see and know.

This is what makes philosophy dangerous to the theist – writers will throw out theories and try to describe reality, try to prescribe meaning to that reality (or argue for a lack of meaning), when it’s impossible to do so.

1. I said the above first because of this second point: God is God. God either exists, or He doesn’t. God either loves us, or He doesn’t. What is your faith founded upon, if not a personal encounter with Christ? If your faith is founded merely in a particular theory of words strung together, you’ve got some work to do. Whether or not you’re doing it already, I highly suggest you get yourself before the Blessed Sacrament, and pray. Twenty, thirty minutes to an hour a day, if you can manage that.

A writer could come before me and present a case for the Bible being entirely made up, and Christ never having existed, etc., but I wouldn’t believe them because I’ve experienced Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and my faith is unshakeable. It doesn’t rely on human thought. It’s a bone-deep knowledge that comes from God Himself.

“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief.”

“Lord, give me faith.”

“Lord, I seek you, and only you.”

1. Talk with a priest. Bring the book, annotated, with you. Most of Dawkins’ argument is completely unfounded, and the rest is explainable. Yes, there is a difference between the way we perceive the OT and NT God, but God doesn’t change. God is timeless. Do you know the historical framework for this difference? Do you understand why that apparent shift occurred? This isn’t a new “theory.”
2. Dawkins is so, so, so wrong, as was Hitchens. I’ve heard this from those who’ve read and studied them both (and I’ve studied Hitchens myself, so I can add my voice). We pray for him. May God have mercy on his soul, and Jesus – Jesus, please lead his soul to the heavens.
3. Read Jacques Philippe’s Interior Freedom. He writes:

“No circumstance in the world can ever prevent us from believing in God, from placing all our trust in him, from loving him with our whole heart, or from loving our neighbor. Faith, hope, and charity are absolutely free, because if they are rooted in us deeply enough, they are able to draw strength from whatever opposes them! If someone sought to prevent us from believing by persecuting us, we always would retain the option of forgiving our enemies and transforming the situation of oppression into one of greater love. If someone tried to silence our faith by killing us, our deaths would be the best possible proclamation of our faith! Love, and only love, can overcome evil by good and draw good out of evil.”

We are nothing without Christ.

May God bless you, and keep you close, in the coming days and weeks. You’ll be in my prayers. :hug1:

 

[prodigalson2011]

Hitchens was better. Unfortunately he’s gone. Dawkins may or may not have excellent credentials (I honestly haven’t put my research into finding out what they are) but he is really just a figurehead if you will for atheists. He repeats the arguments used to refute religion in his own words and uses analogies and metaphors to explain the concepts. He may not be an authority, but that doesn’t mean the arguments are invalid.

From a former Dawkins-fanboy/atheist, once you see how blatantly he decontextualizes things, not to mention how incredibly fallacious his approach to philosophy is, yes. His arguments are invalid.

 

[Aussiegal]

Firstly don’t even bother reading those sort of books it will only confuse you

I don’t know if it is the same book others have suggested but I would recommend a book called ‘Answering the New Atheism’-Dismantling Dawkins Case against God by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker.A preview on the back of the book reads "Dawkins inflammatory rhetoric are misleading millions of readers who don’t see the holes in his argument.

In a lively and fair analysis, Hahn and Wiker expose the shoddy reasoning, logical blunders, and factual errors of Dawkins bestseller “The God Delusion”. Along the way Hahn and Wiker offer a cogent and convincing argument for God’s existence.

Another book is called “There is a God:How the world’s most Notorious Atheist changed his mind” by Anthony Flew who gave this testimony to the above book-
“Rarely, if ever in my many years as a professor of philosophy did I ever have the opportunity to read such a compelling argument”.

Hope this Helps.

 

[Langdell]

… I have thought this myself before, but the Dawkins book really brought it to the forefront of my mind: the God of the Old Testament is completely different than the God Jesus describes in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is evil, vindictive, jealous, war-like, and terrible. Only the most tortured reading of the Old Testament finds any support for the God of love Jesus describes with such passion and beauty. …

This talking point has been around at least since the 18th century. Nevertheless, it didn’t stop C.S. Lewis, Alvin Plantinga, Cardinal Newman, and a host of other brilliant people from being faithful Christians. It shouldn’t stop you, either.

 

[Safia]

I have thought this myself before, but the Dawkins book really brought it to the forefront of my mind: the God of the Old Testament is completely different than the God Jesus describes in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is evil, vindictive, jealous, war-like, and terrible. Only the most tortured reading of the Old Testament finds any support for the God of love Jesus describes with such passion and beauty

With this concern, here is some food for thought:

I dare say, you are definitely interpreting these incidents according to standards that are less the adequate. For God to take human life is NOT evil—as it is for us.

The Ten Commandments are commands by God to us, His creatures. But God is not one of His creatures; He’s God, the Creator of His creatures! So often we make the mistake of forgetting just who God is and begin to measure God by human standards. “Thou shalt not kill” applies to us; not to God. He kills off generations every day! He is the author of human life and has dominion over human life. He ALONE has the right to take human life—any time He so chooses. And it is always the right time!

“You alone are the Holy One. You alone are the Lord. You alone are the Most High” – from the Gloria. (source)

The medieval mystic Blessed Julian of Norwich wondered about the wrath of God and how to square it with the God who is love (1 John 4:16). After one of her visions, she is reported to have said, “I saw no wrath except on man’s part, and that he forgives in us.”

We must remember that Scripture is both God-inspired and manmade. In all that it teaches to be true, it is inerrant, but it is still a product of man’s finite limitations. That means that the portrayal of God in the Old and New Testaments is shaded by man’s understanding of God. In the Old Testament, the sacred authors were formed by a religious culture that understood God to be primarily transcedent – he was so much Other and “out there” that his actions could easily be understood to be “harsh” and “angry.”

Then the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He became a man who laughed and cried with us, suffered and died for us. He cuddled children, made breakfast for his friends, defended the weak, stood up to the powerful, showed compassion for the most part and anger only when necessary. When the disciples fully understood him to be God made man, their perception of who God is naturally shifted. As the Second Vatican Council stated in its document Dei Verbum:

In his goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of his will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1:15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of his love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that he may invite and take them into fellowship with himself. This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having in inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation (DV 2).

(source)

 

[bmullins]

The God of the Old Testament is not a different God than the one of the New Testament. It’s our perception of him, our revelation if you will that has changed to give us a better understanding. Just as today we believe that God has fully revealed himself to us, but we believe that we can come to a deeper understanding of that revelation. The people of the old testament understood God in the way they understood him. The people of the new had a deeper, more accurate understanding of God and his plan. That is why it’s important to read the Old in light of the New. That’s why Tradition is so important. Tradition is the church showing how that revelation is coming into fruition even today.

God is so far and above our understanding of him. Everyday we get a better glimpse of who God is. But we have to keep our eyes on that and let Him reveal himself to us.