The God Particle

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Faith1960

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I posted a question some time ago about the Higgs Boson but now it seems that scientists are closing in on finding it. If and when they find it, will it contradict our faith and Scripture? Will it lead to a “Grand Unified Theory,” and to a debate on whether this is proof of a mechanistic universe or if it was created by design, as one poster pointed out?
Will it be suggestive that our faith and God isn’t real? :confused:

Here’s the article: huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/21/higgs-boson-particle-researchers-data-closing-in_n_1617160.html?utm_hp_ref=science&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl8%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D172285
 
“God particle” is a rather grandiose moniker. Its discovery would have no impact on theology.

There’s a problem with the Big Bang theory. It works really well if all of the matter in the universe started with zero mass. Otherwise, the math goes completely wonky.

So how does matter acquire mass? The LHC is trying to find the Higgs Boson - a subatomic particle which gives mass to matter when it interacts with it. The existence of such a particle is theorized, but it has never been observed. Big colliders bang particles together and see what comes out (all kinds of stuff comes out - we have discovered lots of subatomic particles. At first, they were named with random Greek letters, but we ran out of letters). Subatomic objects decay into other objects and all sorts of fun stuff. The boffins are hoping to catch a glimpse of the Higgs Boson. We’ve theorized other particles - and found them, so scientists are encouraged.

Personally, I don’t think they will find it. I once accepted that line of reasoning, but I’ve started to accept another explanation - the holographic principle (no Higgs Boson required).

Either way, theology won’t be affected (or even notice).

And discovery of the Higgs won’t affect the search for the Grand Unification Theory. We already have the math of the particle, which is all you need to plug it into other equations (you don’t need to prove it exists first). I’m afraid we will need to work out quantum gravity before we have a chance at the GUT. And about the only thing we know about quantum gravity is that it’s weird. (the GUT would unify quantum physics with the General Theory of Relativity. We’ve already reconciled it with the Special Theory of Relativity (though it took 50 years) - General Relativity adds - yes - gravity to the mix, which breaks everything).

(I am reminded of someone’s signature line: Protons have mass??? I didn’t even know they were Catholic!!!)
 
How in the world would this particle disprove God? Does it have all the properties of God? Does it account for its own existence and the existence of all matter, energy, physical laws, life and the human condition?
 
CERN said they were close.

Then they said, “Whoopsy! We made a mistake, misread the data. Well have to start all over again.”

Now they say they are close… again.

James Gillies said the hunt for the presumed Higgs boson is advancing in great secrecy because as researchers pore over the data "it’s not yet clear exactly what they’re seeing in it."

Past performance is not an indicator of future results. Secrecy… Yup. :rolleyes: It’s hard to get egg off your face, even with a particle accelerator.

What strikes me is that it is named The God Particle. In the search to disprove God, the very name bears witness to the need for a God.

-Tim-
 
I sometimes wonder what these scientists are smoking when they do stuff like this.

How would a “God Particle” prove or disprove anything? Nobody would care, atheists would still be atheists, believers would still be believers.

And what’s with the “if we can re-create the Big Bang in our lab then that means there’s no intelligent designer”? Are they saying humans aren’t intelligent? Because the humans would be the ones making it, not nature! LOL
 
Faith1960 said:
I posted a question some time ago about the Higgs Boson but now it seems that scientists are closing in on finding it. If and when they find it, will it contradict our faith and Scripture? Will it lead to a “Grand Unified Theory,” and to a debate on whether this is proof of a mechanistic universe or if it was created by design, as one poster pointed out?
Will it be suggestive that our faith and God isn’t real? :confused:

Here’s the article: huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/21/higgs-boson-particle-researchers-data-closing-in_n_1617160.html?utm_hp_ref=science&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl8%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D172285
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Prove what? That nothing “created” something? That your conscious self, the “you”, is just “molecules in motion,” the sole product of neurons firing in a mammalian If brain? If true, then you have no free will, per the Conservation Laws of Nature – energy, momentum, angular momentum, charge, etc. I find testimonies such as the late Pam Reynolds far, far more interesting:

youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k
 
HI, I’m a newby here and I’d like to throw my 2 pennies worth in.

The search for the Higgs Boson particle isn’t an attempt to prove or disprove God, it’s an attempt to confirm current Scientific Theory. If the particle is discovered it’s not going to change any believer or non believers mindset on anything. It’s been shown for centuries that any new scientific evidence presented will not and does not shake the faith of the faithful. It’s faith isn’t it? The more counter evidence there is the stronger the faith becomes.

All the best,

Chris
 
slippy said:
HI, I’m a newby here and I’d like to throw my 2 pennies worth in.

The search for the Higgs Boson particle isn’t an attempt to prove or disprove God, it’s an attempt to confirm current Scientific Theory. If the particle is discovered it’s not going to change any believer or non believers mindset on anything. It’s been shown for centuries that any new scientific evidence presented will not and does not shake the faith of the faithful. It’s faith isn’t it? The more counter evidence there is the stronger the faith becomes.
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What do you mean, “counter evidence”? I don’t understand this strange assumption that scientific discovery “disproves” God. If discovered, does the Higgs Boson account for itself? Does it account for the universe and the laws of physics?

If I dissect my PC into small enough parts, can I then claim that it created itself, that it had no designer, no creator?
 
Sorry, that’s definitely the wrong choice of words, what I am trying to say - not very well - is that results scientific experimentation and therefore the proofing of scientific Theories, has never (and in my opinion never will) shaken the faith of the faithful in general.

There are exceptions were a scientists own faith has been rocked by his or her own discovery but I know of no point were any breakthrough scientific discovery has shaken faith to the core.

Any scientific proof of the higgs boson particle will not have any impact on the faith of the faithful, from grass roots through to the Vatican.

All the best,

Chris
 
slippy said:
Sorry, that’s definitely the wrong choice of words, what I am trying to say - not very well - is that results scientific experimentation and therefore the proofing of scientific Theories, has never (and in my opinion never will) shaken the faith of the faithful in general.

There are exceptions were a scientists own faith has been rocked by his or her own discovery but I know of no point were any breakthrough scientific discovery has shaken faith to the core.

Any scientific proof of the higgs boson particle will not have any impact on the faith of the faithful, from grass roots through to the Vatican.

All the best,

Chris
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Perhaps it is useful to distinguish between Catholic theology and various forms of fundamentalistic Protestant theology. The Catholic Church sees no conflict between any truths derived in any fashion. That includes no conflict between divinely-revealed truth and scientifically-revealed truth. That’s why you don’t see the Catholic Church trying to counter mountains of evidence and claim that people and dinosaurs lived together, or that the universe was really created in 7 24-hour days, with EM radiation seemingly from far distant galaxies created by God in mid-flight a few thousand years ago to confuse us - sigh. :rolleyes:

Evolution? No problem for the Catholic Church, insofar as it is true.
Quantum mechanics? No problem for the Catholic Church, insofar as it is true.
13.7 billion year old universe? No problem for the Catholic Church, insofar as it is true.
You get the idea. 🙂
 
Yes, I don’t understand how this would disprove the existence of God. Did believers ever state that their religion was based on the notion that God did not invent particles?
 
to Snarflemike,

sorry, I don’t know how to block quote.

Yes, that’s kind of my point. There is not and never will be any kind of discovery that will directly disprove a God, of any faith (well maybe scientology:)).

In some cases, denying something on the basis that it can’t be true because scripture or God says it can’t be true is futile (evolution and age of the earth as per your example) and it just discredits any position from the start. There are the other arguments about miracles and virgin births and resurrections etc but these are off topic, relevant only in that there is no experiment that can disprove such notions.

So as per the original post, I can’t see how discovering something (or not, it’s not been shown yet!) can have an impact on a persons faith. It can be interpreted in a number of ways by the faithful in order to fit with faith and it will be interpreted differently by the non believing community.

All the best

Chris
 
slippy said:
to Snarflemike,

sorry, I don’t know how to block quote.
Click to expand...
You can hit the QUOTE button on the bottom right, or the Quote Speech Bubble on the bar above the window.
Yes, that’s kind of my point. There is not and never will be any kind of discovery that will directly disprove a God, of any faith (well maybe scientology:)).
Click to expand...
In some cases, denying something on the basis that it can’t be true because scripture or God says it can’t be true is futile (evolution and age of the earth as per your example) and it just discredits any position from the start. There are the other arguments about miracles and virgin births and resurrections etc but these are off topic, relevant only in that there is no experiment that can disprove such notions.
Click to expand...
So as per the original post, I can’t see how discovering something (or not, it’s not been shown yet!) can have an impact on a persons faith. It can be interpreted in a number of ways by the faithful in order to fit with faith and it will be interpreted differently by the non believing community.
Click to expand...
All the best
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Chris
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As a new poster here, I just want to commend you for the charity of your posts so far. Sometimes “non religious” posters come here with a serious chip on their shoulders, and some Catholics and other Christians here (wrongly) resond in kind. So again I commend you for your charity.

BTW, a lot of the Catholics here were once “non religious”. Just sayin’ 😉
 
One little thing, most ot the ‘great leapes’ in science were make by Catholics, many of them were Deacons and Priests. :tiphat:
 
slippy and snarflemike both welcome. Me I’m just coming back from a looooooooooong backslide.

The way I see it from my limited perspective is that the only valid evidence for most non believers is empirical evidence, and historical, philosophical, ontological, theological, antecdotal, metaphysical… etc. you get the idea… is discarded. God in the Catholic understanding is immaterial, unrestricted, simple… meaning not divisible by parts, omnipresent, omniscient, etc. It is not possible to view an entity with that description in a test tube, telescope, or microscope. It is beyond the scope of science to observe and measure the unobservable and immeasurable. empiricism is the wrong tool to answer the question of the existence of God. It’s like using a tire pressure gauge to take someones temperature… the temperature is zero so I guess they don’t exist.🤷

Bottom line is nobody who doesn’t want to be convinced will be convinced. A reason to not believe can always be found, and like wise someone firm in their faith won’t be shaken. There is no absolute proof that God either does or doesn’t exist. It’s a matter of faith in either direction. We live our lives around either assumption then walk in to the undiscovered country of death where it will be cleared up for everyone forever.
 
Jehannette said:
Prove what? That nothing “created” something? That your conscious self, the “you”, is just “molecules in motion,” the sole product of neurons firing in a mammalian If brain? If true, then you have no free will, per the Conservation Laws of Nature – energy, momentum, angular momentum, charge, etc. I find testimonies such as the late Pam Reynolds far, far more interesting:

youtube.com/watch?v=WNbdUEqDB-k
Click to expand...
I just watched that video. It’s an amazing story.
 
I was channel surfing tonight, some time between 10:00 and 10:30, and heard the very end of an EWTN program where some man was standing in front of a room, in front of a podium, I think, saying something about “particles” and that we (I guess “we” meant the CC?) accept the findings. The program ended a few seconds later. Does anyone know what he was talking about? Sorry I don’t have any more information about it.
 
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