The Good Thief

[YourAverageJoe]

Not to change the subject but speaking of the crucifixition. If any error existed in Mel Gibsons movie Passion of the Christ, it was that he had the thief on Jesus’ right, rather than on his left. Scripture has the redeemed thief on the Right!

If I understand, scripture places all righteous to the right…

Jesus, sit on the right of God,
Goats to the left, sheep to the right, at judgement.
Redeemed thief, to Jesus’s Right.

In Christ!

 

[laverita]

I agree that its not confined to this method alone. In fact, I never said those words. So please do not put words into my mouth. I never said that the spirit is transferred by the only laying on of hands. So drop the straw man argument Leverita

Your statement

.
Plus, if you consider that Scripture tells us that the act of having faith is, in and of itself, a work (John 6:27-29), then it is not possible to be saved by faith alone…the act of having faith is a work of the intellect and a work of the will.

I was down playing the ridged standards that some attach to works, I apply the same definition to works as I do sin. Your faith is made complete by action, that which is in you, by your choice, is manifest to do good works. The same is true for sin, you must first conceive in your mind and heart, then sin manifest its self in preforming it. Jesus set a very high bar when He said. Looking at a woman with lust. Jesus said when you do that you have already committed the act in your heart. "The Pharisees have told you that you are committing Adultery only if you actually have relations with a woman, but I say to you that it is the intent of your heart that God judges.

Work/ works definition is is a verb, its a noun when describing others work. If I see the box, and think to move it no work has yet bin done, it is not yet worked on earth. It is still your spirits will. Just as If I conceived to kill Able, in the world we say no sin has been committed, but the sin against the Spirit has. The same is true about your opening statement

that Scripture tells us that the act of having faith is, in and of itself, a work (John 6:27-29)
Jesus: This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.

This is the work of the Spirit in the mind and heart. Completely different from the work of the flesh. This had already taken place and was confirmed in the thief’s words. Are his speaking words works? In context that his body preformed action to speak, yes. But you see again that the Spirit was already at “work” apart from the body to cause the body to follow. The statement made was not the action that caused the statement to be made. Its the cart before the horse.

John 4:14
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Do you see that? “Then will I” sprinkle clean water upon you.
You can take no credit in your fleshly works for your salvation.
The LORD is there, in your heart before every action.

Answer me this, if a man or woman does not have the Spirit, the mind and heart of Christ, how does baptizing them change their heart and mind. It was no different for the Pharisees they followed the law and preformed the action in works at the temple, did it change their heart? Life is not in found or earned in the works of the flesh, but the flesh testifies to the life thats in it. Life is in God, God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. The entire Bible testifys to the fact that no works will get you salvation. The falling way of Israel at many points was not that they did not follow the law, but rather first they chose in their heart to not follow the law, they moved away from God. The not keeping of the law was the proof, not the cause. The law was given that we might know what sin is. Sin is willfully moving away from God. Without the law how would we know what was displeasing to Him. The proof is in the action not the cause again.

Galatians 3: 2 (NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law – or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

 

[CentralFLJames]

No lesson of universal salvation? Jesus is the salvation of the universe.

The other theif did not repent. NO ONE gets to heaven unless they repent and transform theirselves in Christ.
There is such as thing as goats and sheeps and the goats ALL go to hell. Ergo - Christ paid for the sins of all humanity but if somone does not want to take advantage of it they elect to reject Christ and go to hell.

So either you don’t understand wha the term means or you do not believe that some people go to hell
.

Something was required indeed, The simple testimony (acceptance) that Jesus is Lord.
What good would it have done the man that blasphemed Him to be baptized? Or any man that first is not seeking and receptive of Jesus.

You subscribe to the Protestant error of “easy believism”. It takes more than simple profession of belief in general. One must believe and one must also REPENT and demonstrate that belief by one’s actions and be baptised (either by water, by desire, or by blood). The normative means is by water but the good thief was given an exception by desire to be bound to cross and Jesus had the authority to make that exception since it was impossible for baptism in this circumstance and because Christ had not yet risen.

It would have done the bad theif no good to be baptised at all if he did not truly believe in the merits of baptism. Infant baptism works becuase of the faith of the parents be spoken on behalf of the child taken together with the oath to raise the children in the Catholic/Christian faith.

Before ever hearing of Jesus what work could you credit in His name. Phillip and the Ethiopian which came first? The Spirit told Phillip to go near, the man was reading seeking, the Spirit was already at work in him. He them heard the truth, and was baptized. For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him. 2 Chronicles 16

The good thief joined his suffering to Christ’s through empathy. That is a work of pure faith not a work of the law.

Indeed the Ethiopian was called by God as God does all His children. But he still had to be baptised. Had he desired to be baptised but died before he could be then God would give him a baptism of desire (since he intended to).

James

 

[MarcoPolo]

Jesus healed the centurions servant. It was not intercession, in the definition that Jesus worked threw the centurian. Jesus had grace and fulfilled the request of the centurion. That made the servant healed.

True. But the text tells us Jesus performed the healing at the intercessory request of the centurian, does it not?

 

[laverita]

The other theif did not repent. NO ONE gets to heaven unless they repent and transform theirselves in Christ.

Transforms themselves? thats interesting.

There is such as thing as goats and sheeps and the goats ALL go to hell. Ergo - Christ paid for the sins of all humanity but if somone does not want to take advantage of it they elect to reject Christ and go to hell.

So either you don’t understand wha the term means or you do not believe that some people go to hell

I believe people will “go to hell” what term are you referring to?

You subscribe to the Protestant error of “easy believism”. It takes more than simple profession of belief in general. One must believe and one must also REPENT and demonstrate that belief by one’s actions and be baptised (either by water, by desire, or by blood). The normative means is by water but the good thief was given an exception by desire to be bound to cross and Jesus had the authority to make that exception since it was impossible for baptism in this circumstance and because Christ had not yet risen.

Error of easy believism is that a word? If you chose to add conditions to what is written thats your choice. If you want to say the good thief was given an exception, OK but there are Bible verses that support he was not “given an exception” but rather thats how it is.

It would have done the bad theif no good to be baptised at all if he did not truly believe in the merits of baptism. Infant baptism works becuase of the faith of the parents be spoken on behalf of the child taken together with the oath to raise the children in the Catholic/Christian faith.

I would use words such as dedicating to God, rather than the faith of the parents, and oath to raise them Catholic. Infant baptism works? Can someone other than Jesus save? Im seeing this as you believe salvation is assured at the infant baptism.

The good thief joined his suffering to Christ’s through empathy. That is a work of pure faith not a work of the law.

Indeed the Ethiopian was called by God as God does all His children. But he still had to be baptised. Had he desired to be baptised but died before he could be then God would give him a baptism of desire (since he intended to).

James

Work of faith. I completely agree.
The Ethiopians baptism was no different than Johns, the people heard repented and were baptized. Were they born of the Holy Spirit? No. If you dont understand that there is clear difference between them then you dont understand the word. Being baptized does not replace nor is it necessary for you and the LORD to work out your salvation in your heart, that you should receive the Holy Spirit, now this my take people to many different places and many works my have been done, but it will never be accomplished with works. Its the work inside. When you receive it, it is very clear that it is a gift by grace threw faith, not of works least any man should boast.

Galatians 3: 2 (NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law – or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Back to your opening statement (NO ONE gets to heaven unless they repent and transform theirselves in Christ)

I say to you no one sees God unless he is born again with the Spirit. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Easy believism!!! easy! I say it is you that seek the easy salvation by works, I sought it by the renewing of my mind. I worked it out on the inside, the Spirit then came in. Oh that it was as easy as being baptized, and a good deed. Many seek but few find, the path is narrow, full of pit falls, easy it is not.
I am being transformed by the Spirit into the image of Christ, it is He that calls me to get up and when to lay down. It is He that leads the transformation, His grace covers my weakness, It is He that dictates the times and changes in me, leading me on to the day of perfection. The man that walks this path knows full well the meaning of, A fool rejects correction, correct a wise man and he becomes even wiser still. Or, My son do not despise the Lords discipline and do not resent His rebuke, because the Lord disciplines those He loves, as a father the son he delights in. These are the works that please the Lord, walking, learning, speaking and teaching in a world that does not know and can not see. Not some pompous ceremony, did I come to know the Lord.

 

[laverita]

True. But the text tells us Jesus performed the healing at the intercessory request of the centurian, does it not?

Heres your original statement I fail to see the connection between the thief and the centurion. We were never told that ether received salvation just that Jesus said he had faith. And it would be done as he requested. My point was that the power of the Spirit did not go from Jesus threw the centurion to the sick man. It went from Jesus to the sick man at the request by faith. Please make the connection Im not so smart that I can not learn.

It was impossible for him to have baptism formally by water. The exception doesn’t make the rule.

It’s the same way the centurian’s servant was healed through the intercession of the centurian. Are we supposed to assume from that event that we should not go to Christ on our own even if we’re able? No, the sick servant couldn’t go to Jesus normatively, yet Jesus healed Him all the same.

And I stand by my point that exceptions to the rule in scripture, simply means the rule does not apply at all, you must rethink the rule so it applies to all cases. Other wise its a faulty rule.

I am sorry If I sound defensive I think we may quite agree that both by faith alone received.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Transforms themselves? thats interesting.

It is a cooperative work between God and the individual believer. So yes, in that sense a person must cooperate with the tranformation. One can not be baptised then go back to being a sinner and not reforming their lives.

I believe people will “go to hell” what term are you referring to?

I think you just did not understand the Catholic rejection of the term “universal salvation” since this was a phrase used by some heretics who believed that because Jesus died everyone went to heaven - baptised or not and beliving in Him or not.

We are in agreement then since you do not apparently believe that all go to heaven and just used the term wrongly.

Error of easy believism is that a word? If you chose to add conditions to what is written thats your choice. If you want to say the good thief was given an exception, OK but there are Bible verses that support he was not “given an exception” but rather thats how it is.

No, you are wrong Laverita. There is no scripture support for what you say. The normal means of salvation is being baptised by water and dedicated to Christ and repenting one’s life. The Holy Spirit is received at baptism which begins transforming a person over their entire life to become “Christ-like” - IF one cooperates with Him.

Don’t confuse the baptism of John the Baptist with The Christian Trinitarian Baptism. The Holy Spirit did NOT come until after Christ is risen and during Pentecost. John the Baptist’s baptism was a preparation to get people ready for Christ. It was NOT a Christian baptism in the same sense we have today. It was a simple re dedication to God that one would try to repent their lives. Baptisms of this sort were common to the Jews and many men and women often rededicated themselves to God at different times in their life. But after Pentecost those who were previously baptised by John The Baptist either had to receive a new baptism “in Christ’s Name” after Pentecost or else they received a baptism by desire by continuing to follow in the Apostolic Catholic Church teaching. To be a “Christian” one had to remain as a as a formal members of The Church and go to worship together and partake of The Sacred Bread and Wine and confess sins one to another (to the apostolic bishops and priests).

I would use words such as dedicating to God, rather than the faith of the parents, and oath to raise them Catholic. Infant baptism works? Can someone other than Jesus save? Im seeing this as you believe salvation is assured at the infant baptism.

An infant can not dedicate itself to God since it does not have a formed conscience. But the parents by divine right are that child’s custodian and may speak on its behalf until it attains the age of reason. Those parents are thus responsible for insuring the child is raised Christian or they are judged for failing to do so and violating that divine trust (and will go to hell). Only Jesus can save but one must come to Jesus to be saved. The parents do that just as Jesus ordered “Bring the children to me - to such as these belong the kingdom of God”. An infant who is baptised IS assured of salvation if it dies before the age of reason since it can not commit any sin without a formed conscience. However, a baptised child who after developing a conscience and knows right from wrong (varies by child as to when) then died after committing grave sin that was not confessed and unforgiven goes to hell just like anyone else.

Work of faith. I completely agree.
The Ethiopians baptism was no different than Johns, the people heard repented and were baptized. Were they born of the Holy Spirit? …

I disagree here Laverita. John the Baptist’s baptism was not a Christian Baptism made in Christ’s name. Only a trinitarian water baptism is valid for a Christian ("in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit). There are a few exceptions as I mentioned (baptism by desire and baptism by blood).

Thus baptism is ESSENTIAL for a Christian. It is NOT a mere symbolic act it is a real sacrament that imparts a divine spiritual mark on the soul and radically reconfigures it to Christ and immediately forgives one of all personal and original sin. The Holy Spirit also immediately makes an indwelling and starts transforming that person into a child of God over its entire life.

Back to your opening statement (NO ONE gets to heaven unless they repent and transform theirselves in Christ)

I say to you no one sees God unless he is born again with the Spirit. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saying the same thing. Baptism is rebirth and then one must cooperate and grow as a new child of light.

Easy believism!!! easy! I say it is you that seek the easy salvation by works,
…
Not some pompous ceremony, did I come to know the Lord.

I think you are being emotional here and are not judging well. I most certainly do not think salvation is easy. It requires a lot of cooperation and discipline to let grace do its work in our lives and to not fall into temptation.

Have you ever seen a Catholic Baptism? It is in no means a pompous ceremony. It is a very simple and somber rite that takes only 5-10 minutes. I think somone is telling you a lot of negative things about Catholics.

It sounds like you are a strong beleiver Laverita and are being transformed by the HS. Did you receive a water baptism made with the trinitarian formula?

James

 

[broski234]

Your statement

I was down playing the ridged standards that some attach to works, I apply the same definition to works as I do sin. Your faith is made complete by action, that which is in you, by your choice, is manifest to do good works. The same is true for sin, you must first conceive in your mind and heart, then sin manifest its self in preforming it. Jesus set a very high bar when He said. Looking at a woman with lust. Jesus said when you do that you have already committed the act in your heart. "The Pharisees have told you that you are committing Adultery only if you actually have relations with a woman, but I say to you that it is the intent of your heart that God judges.

Work/ works definition is is a verb, its a noun when describing others work. If I see the box, and think to move it no work has yet bin done, it is not yet worked on earth. It is still your spirits will. Just as If I conceived to kill Able, in the world we say no sin has been committed, but the sin against the Spirit has. The same is true about your opening statement

This is the work of the Spirit in the mind and heart. Completely different from the work of the flesh. This had already taken place and was confirmed in the thief’s words. Are his speaking words works? In context that his body preformed action to speak, yes. But you see again that the Spirit was already at “work” apart from the body to cause the body to follow. The statement made was not the action that caused the statement to be made. Its the cart before the horse.

Do you see that? “Then will I” sprinkle clean water upon you.
You can take no credit in your fleshly works for your salvation.
The LORD is there, in your heart before every action.

Answer me this, if a man or woman does not have the Spirit, the mind and heart of Christ, how does baptizing them change their heart and mind. It was no different for the Pharisees they followed the law and preformed the action in works at the temple, did it change their heart? Life is not in found or earned in the works of the flesh, but the flesh testifies to the life thats in it. Life is in God, God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. The entire Bible testifys to the fact that no works will get you salvation. The falling way of Israel at many points was not that they did not follow the law, but rather first they chose in their heart to not follow the law, they moved away from God. The not keeping of the law was the proof, not the cause. The law was given that we might know what sin is. Sin is willfully moving away from God. Without the law how would we know what was displeasing to Him. The proof is in the action not the cause again.

Galatians 3: 2 (NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law – or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Are you still suggesting that my statements have contradicted each other? Cause I still don’t see it. We are not saved by faith alone. Faith and works by Grace Alone.

 

[MarcoPolo]

exceptions to the rule in scripture, simply means the rule does not apply at all

This statement itself is unscriptural!

 

[laverita]

This statement itself is unscriptural!

Then let me rephrase it, the rules you make from scripture.
scripture must agree 100% for your rule to be valid.
Exceptions to your rule in scripture are not valid other wise.

That is not un scriptural it is very scriptural. You can apply that to the name it and claim it teachers that insist that all Christians should be rich, they ignore the other passages that say different. The same is true in Catholic dogma. Its called tradition and uses scripture to validate it and pays no attention to verses that conflict.
That how broski234 will say

We are not saved by faith alone. Faith and works by Grace Alone.

And pay no attention to

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

or this

Galatians 3: 2 (NIV) I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the Law – or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Its what your taught, you must accept it or be cast out of the one church that holds salvation. You are not allowed to believe the scripture you must believe the churches tradition or its interpretation. The glue that bonds it all together for you is one verse Mat 16:18 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. thats a pretty small point to balance the entire Catholic Church on but you do. I rather think the Church is built on Christ. In heaven as well as on earth. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit on earth and Peter did not make that happen Jesus did. And as you see from the above verses men and works are not a part of it. If you want to believe that its “Faith and works by Grace Alone”. that is your choice but scripture disagrees not me. If you think that Peter put the Holy Spirit in a bottle and passed it consecutively from Pope to Pope until today, that is your right but scripture not ME disagrees. We must each work out own salvation. for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Then let me rephrase it, the rules you make from scripture.
scripture must agree 100% for your rule to be valid.
Exceptions to your rule in scripture are not valid other wise.

Its what your taught, you must accept it or be cast out of the one church that holds salvation. You are not allowed to believe the scripture you must believe

I’m sorry, but all of this is your unscriptural opinion, and the last sentence is just polemics. If you wish to seriously study a particular verse, I would like you to start a thread, such as “Catholics believe X, but Scripture says Y.” I contend there is no Scripture conflicting with any doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[MarcoPolo]

For everyone…

As if on cue, I accidentally came across the following quotation by Augustine on the Good Thief while researching a different topic. He says exactly what I have said in this thread about the inability of the thief to receive normative baptism:

And as in the thief the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism, because it had been missing not from pride or contempt, but from want of opportunity; so in infants who die baptized, we must believe that the same grace of the Almighty supplies the want, that, not from perversity of will, but from insufficiency of age, they can neither believe with the heart unto righteousness, nor make confession with the mouth unto salvation. Therefore, when others take the vows for them [intercession], that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete in their behalf, it is unquestionably of avail for their dedication to God, because they cannot answer for themselves. (Augustine, On Baptism, IV.24., ca. 400 A.D.)
Augustine, the Church Father, exactly as some of us have articulated here, says that when someone “cannot answer for themselves” that “the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism.”

 

[laverita]

For everyone…

As if on cue, I accidentally came across the following quotation by Augustine on the Good Thief while researching a different topic. He says exactly what I have said in this thread about the inability of the thief to receive normative baptism:

And as in the thief the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism, because it had been missing not from pride or contempt, but from want of opportunity; so in infants who die baptized, we must believe that the same grace of the Almighty supplies the want, that, not from perversity of will, but from insufficiency of age, they can neither believe with the heart unto righteousness, nor make confession with the mouth unto salvation. Therefore, when others take the vows for them [intercession], that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete in their behalf, it is unquestionably of avail for their dedication to God, because they cannot answer for themselves. (Augustine, On Baptism, IV.24., ca. 400 A.D.)
Augustine, the Church Father, exactly as some of us have articulated here, says that when someone “cannot answer for themselves” that “the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism.”

Thats a very nice way to support your baptism dogma. this verse below covers the same grace he received free, nothing else was necessary. along with the others I posted before dont support the dogma ether. So if as you say, “the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism.” how necessary is baptism? Its not, Augustine just said it, God provided it, I say as the scripture below states its not by any works. Saying God provided the baptism says nothing more than you believe it is necessary, you would rather he receive a pass on baptism than the fullness of the promise, because it supports your dogma. end of discussion.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[broski234]

Thats a very nice way to support your baptism dogma. this verse below covers the same grace he received free, nothing else was necessary. along with the others I posted before dont support the dogma ether. So if as you say, “the gracious goodness of the Almighty supplied what had been wanting in the sacrament of baptism.” how necessary is baptism? Its not, Augustine just said it, God provided it, I say as the scripture below states its not by any works. Saying God provided the baptism says nothing more than you believe it is necessary, you would rather he receive a pass on baptism than the fullness of the promise, because it supports your dogma. end of discussion.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Keep reading…Eph 2:10. We need to walk in the good works Christ has prepared for us beforehand. Haven’t we been through this? And you still never answered my question.

 

[skeyes]

Broski, you really had a good discussion going here on the good thief. It amazes me that in almost every discussion we have to fight back the junk and debunk again and again the heresy that the Bible is all we need and that faith is all we need. I am putout a little, you being from Shreveport know what putout means, that good discussion must always be interupted by proselytizers who are trying to save us poor Catholics.
However, I will say that Jesus says in John’s gospel that we must be born of water and the spirit. So some sort of baptism is necessary, desire, water or blood. Please continue discussing your original assertion and ignore this person here proselytizing.
In His service,
Stan

 

[laverita]

Keep reading…Eph 2:10. We need to walk in the good works Christ has prepared for us beforehand. Haven’t we been through this? And you still never answered my question.

We have been discussing the need of baptism or works TO RECEIVE salvation. I dont question the works that follow. Equating the two is not possible. You are saved or not, their is no 1st 2nd and 3rd class salvation or progressive salvation. The works that follow, are for lack of a better word rewards. But in the case of the Spirit driven men, the work was buy God and for God. They dont make you more saved. Now consider the thought that Jesus said the least or the one that serves is the greatest. So if you are doing works to so you can become the richest in heaven you have the wrong heart, and are not being lead by the Spirit.

Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I dont see your case in both the it is clear that the Lord prepared beforehand, and in the other it says “God who works in you both to will and to do”. In ether case it says the Lord is responsible for both the will to do it and the action carried out as doing it. (Both to will and to do) where is YOUR WORKS in this equation? Did the Apostles claim that THEY performed the work or did they say the Lord worked threw me? The first example implies that you have power outside the will of God. We are nothing aside of Christ.

 

[laverita]

Broski, you really had a good discussion going here on the good thief. It amazes me that in almost every discussion we have to fight back the junk and debunk again and again the heresy that the Bible is all we need and that faith is all we need. I am putout a little, you being from Shreveport know what putout means, that good discussion must always be interupted by proselytizers who are trying to save us poor Catholics.
However, I will say that Jesus says in John’s gospel that we must be born of water and the spirit. So some sort of baptism is necessary, desire, water or blood. Please continue discussing your original assertion and ignore this person here proselytizing.
In His service,
Stan

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Why did not Jesus just come out and say, unless one is born of baptism and the Spirit. You will say He is speaking figuratively, yes He is. But He in the next sentence makes it clear the water is the flesh. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. The flesh He is speaking of is the fallen state of man flesh without the Spirit. This Spirit returned is the same Spirit that was lost in Adam and Eve. Born of the water “flesh” and the Spirit is the reunion that was lost with Adam.

What is born of water? Nicodemus was asking if he could re enter his mother. We are in water in the womb. Born of water. The fallen state of all men, born without the Spirit of God, the flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit, so how is it that the Spirit is bound in baptism? Its not its bound to the flesh making a man whole again before God.

Back to what Jesus first told him
“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Born again in the Holy Spirit.

I dont see desire, water or blood baptism here. I dont even see the word baptism.
Proselytizing you flatter me, I have done nothing but discuss scripture and state facts about Catholics. If thats proselytizing you are taking offense to what the Bible says. As apposed to telling people what they want to here.

So some sort of baptism is necessary, desire, water or blood. Please continue discussing your original assertion and ignore this person here proselytizing.
In His service,

 

[CentralFLJames]

We have been discussing the need of baptism or works TO RECEIVE salvation. I dont question the works that follow. Equating the two is not possible. You are saved or not, their is no 1st 2nd and 3rd class salvation or progressive salvation. The works that follow, are for lack of a better word rewards. But in the case of the Spirit driven men, the work was buy God and for God. They dont make you more saved. Now consider the thought that Jesus said the least or the one that serves is the greatest. So if you are doing works to so you can become the richest in heaven you have the wrong heart, and are not being lead by the Spirit.

Philippians 2
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I dont see your case in both the it is clear that the Lord prepared beforehand, and in the other it says “God who works in you both to will and to do”. In ether case it says the Lord is responsible for both the will to do it and the action carried out as doing it. (Both to will and to do) where is YOUR WORKS in this equation? Did the Apostles claim that THEY performed the work or did they say the Lord worked threw me? The first example implies that you have power outside the will of God. We are nothing aside of Christ.

laverita, I hate to tell you this but there is no such concept as “saved”. No one is saved until God judges them saved. To presume one is saved is to presume that one can judge in God’s place and can speak for God. You can’t deny God His right to judge every soul by self-declaring yourself saved.

The best anyone can do is believe in Jesus. Repent of their sins. Get baptised in the trinitarian formula in His Church - The Catholic Church. Then continue all one’s life to try hard to live according to the commandments of Jesus (Love God and Neighbor) and cooperate with Grace and go to Mass weekly and receive the Eucharist (Body & Blood of Christ) and stay away from the temptations of sin. If one sins grieviously (a serious sin) after baptism they must go to sacramental confession and be forgiven of their sins and repent.

God will work His miracle of grace in such a person and transform them into His child of light and this child wanting to be pleasing in God’s eyes will automatically perform works of Love for the father through charity. Such a person will also do works of Mercy. Such a person will also be asked to suffer for God in some way to identify with Christ’s suffering. Such a person will then at his death be found worthy of God’s kingdom and be received into Glory and receive her crown and rewards but most importantly will be received into God’s presence for the eternal reward of love and beatitude of God - which is the reward promised.

James

 

[broski234]

Broski, you really had a good discussion going here on the good thief. It amazes me that in almost every discussion we have to fight back the junk and debunk again and again the heresy that the Bible is all we need and that faith is all we need. I am putout a little, you being from Shreveport know what putout means, that good discussion must always be interupted by proselytizers who are trying to save us poor Catholics.
However, I will say that Jesus says in John’s gospel that we must be born of water and the spirit. So some sort of baptism is necessary, desire, water or blood. Please continue discussing your original assertion and ignore this person here proselytizing.
In His service,
Stan

Thanks Stan, I agree. Hope all is well “down south!”

 

[mulligan59]

This is such a simple issue, I find all of this discussion amazing. The Good Thief was saved under th old dispensation. Water Baptism is ABSOLUTELY necassary (John 3:5), but it did not become the law until after the Ressurection (when the commission was given). This is Christianity 101, or should be. On faith vs. works, the Bible tells us that faith without works is useless. Our Lord tells us that if we love Him, we will keep his commandments and also that we are to be judged by our fruits. Yes grace is required, a free gift of God, but are obligated to respond to it in such a way that good works will result. Again not that hard, or shouldn’t be. But portestant notions are very confusing.