the good thief

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DEESYPAL

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I came upon this Evangelical apologetics website with this quote

‘When the thief died on the cross, he had but just believed, and had never done a single good work. But where did he go? He ought to have gone to purgatory by rights if ever anybody did. But instead of that the Saviour said to him, “Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Why? Because the ground of the man’s admission into Paradise was perfect.’

C.H. SPURGEON — MTP Vol 12 pg. 562

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/romancatholic.html

I know this must be a recurring issue against the balances of faith and works, but could someone please ease my distress about this lolz 😃
 
The logical error in the statement from that website is that only good works can remit the temporal punishment due to sin. Contrition, of which the good thief may have had a great deal, can do the trick as well. Suffering, which the thief was experiencing on his cross, works too. Furthermore, God can remit the temporal punishment due to sin simply by willing it remitted. Perhaps Christ did just this for the good thief.

This Evangelical website has not disproved the doctrine of purgatory. What it has proved is that whoever created it had little understanding of Catholic teaching on purgatory.
 
His dying in grace was his ultimate work. “Simply say the word and I shall be healed.” I always thought that if we went to confession and died, that at least we would make it into pergatory. I think of this as being apart of Heaven in the sense that we will all be in Heaven at some point.

Also the parable about a days wage when some only worked part of the day and yet all recieved the same pay.
 
First thing, while the thief on the cross is a wonderful example of God’s mercy, he is not a good guide for living the Christian life. Most of us will not die within minutes or hours of converting and entering into God’s grace. Most of us have many decades between the first event and the second (or last!) event.

Secondly, the quote you give makes the false assumption that purgatory must involve the passage of time. As the Catechism states, it is a process, not necessarily a place and not necessarily involving time (both of which are material attributes, after all). That man may have been purified in his remaining time on the cross, and/or by the efforts of God after death. We don’t presume to know which it was, unlike the quote which assumes it must have been after death and must have involved time passing.
 
Our undertanding in all faiths, is that baptism removes every stain of sin, and makes the soul spotless before God, unless we tarnish it anew with willful sin.

As Catholics, we believe there are three types of baptism: water, blood (martyrdom), and desire.

It is not water baptism that the good thief experienced on the cross, but probably baptism of *desire, *which would render him spotless and provide entry into paradise. What a precious grace!
 
I agree Luke 23:43 doesn’t prove purgatory doesn’t exist.

Didn’t He descend to the dead after he died and didn’t ascend into Heaven until after he rose again on the 3rd day?

Where did Jesus and the good thief go “today?” Perhaps He wasn’t referring to Heaven when he says “Paradise.” Rather a place of the righteous dead who were bound for heaven until after the resurrection.

I’m sure others in this forum could expand on that.
 
I think it’s just a case of people reading too much into things. too me it;s just about Jesus showing mercy on a man who is suffering and scared. something (to me ) is one of the most beautifulest (is that a word and if so i don’t think i spelled it correctly.) things in the Bible
 
Since there weren’t yet specific sacraments, to me this scene is easily translatable into a person on their death bed being baptized, and confessing their sins to a priest, and/or having the anointing of the sick just before they die. Jesus fulfilled that role. Whether that person goes straight to Heaven or purgatory is no clearer to us than any situation, as God judges not us.
 
To All:

Why don’t you all refer to him by his name? FYI it’s St. Dismas. The Church thought enough of him to give him a name and sainthood. Until recently, when the Church decided to clean up his image, he was the patron Saint of thieves and murderers.
Dan
 
To say that the good thief didn’t do a single good work is not true. Just before speaking with Jesus, the good thief rebuked the other criminal. Admonishing sinners is considered a spiritual work of mercy.
38One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 39But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 40And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 41And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 42And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:38-42)
 
As mentioned, the good thief did good things before he died. He rebuked the other thief for mocking Jesus, he asked for mercy, he suffered with Jesus on the Cross, and in fact he went to the same agony Jesus did (more or less). Now, if Protestants are right, then Jesus would have stopped him from suffering. Jesus would have said to him, “I am going to suffer for your sake, so this is needless on your part.” Did Jesus say that to either of them? Of course not; He still let them suffer with Him. So yes, the good thief clearly did good things, even if it’s near his end.
 
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atsheeran:
The logical error in the statement from that website is that only good works can remit the temporal punishment due to sin. Contrition, of which the good thief may have had a great deal, can do the trick as well. Suffering, which the thief was experiencing on his cross, works too. Furthermore, God can remit the temporal punishment due to sin simply by willing it remitted. Perhaps Christ did just this for the good thief.

This Evangelical website has not disproved the doctrine of purgatory. What it has proved is that whoever created it had little understanding of Catholic teaching on purgatory.
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Don’t forget we have a great example of the baptism of desire.
 
Todd Easton:
To say that the good thief didn’t do a single good work is not true. Just before speaking with Jesus, the good thief rebuked the other criminal. Admonishing sinners is considered a spiritual work of mercy.38One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 39But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 40And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 41And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 42And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:38-42)
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I bet that theif was part of the crowd that gathered a few chapters back in Luke Ch12:
1 In the meantime, when so many thousands of the multitude had gathered together that they trod upon one another, he began to say to his disciples first, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. 4 "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him! 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows. 8 "And I tell you, every one who acknowledges me before men, the Son of man also will acknowledge before the angels of God; 9 but he who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
 
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spanky:
I agree Luke 23:43 doesn’t prove purgatory doesn’t exist.

Didn’t He descend to the dead after he died and didn’t ascend into Heaven until after he rose again on the 3rd day?

Where did Jesus and the good thief go “today?” Perhaps He wasn’t referring to Heaven when he says “Paradise.” Rather a place of the righteous dead who were bound for heaven until after the resurrection.

I’m sure others in this forum could expand on that.
Click to expand...
The word Paradise is found in two other places in the New Testament. First, in 2 Cor. 12:3: Paul says, “I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven - whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise – whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know, God knows – and he heard things which cannot be told, which man may not utter.”

Paradise is the heavenly abode of God where there are found things prepared by God for those who love him, which are utterly indescribable (1 Cor. 2:9). The second place the word “Paradise” is found is in Rev. 2:7. In this passage Jesus says to the church at Ephesus, “To him who conquers, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.” And if we look at the end of the book of Revelation we find that the tree of life is in the heavenly city of God. In Rev. 22:1 John said, “Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”

Blessings,
Richard
 
Psalm45:9:
Don’t forget we have a great example of the baptism of desire.
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And even then, Baptism was not a requirement for Salvation until after the Great Commission (Matthew 28)

That happened AFTER the Crucifixion.

The ‘good thief’ was saved under the Old Covenant, not the New.
 
Dear Bendan,

Can you be sure about this? Baptism of desire is not official water baptism, but the Church has stated that it will bring salvation. Does it really matter whether the “desire” in all of its purity was experienced prior to an official commission? We do have Jesus’s words to him assuring him, do we not?

There is a very good presentation on this here:
geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/bapdesire.htm
Concerning the necessity of the sacraments for salvation Peter Lombard (1160 AD) points out that, “God did not bind his power by the Sacraments.” In other words, God is not bound by the sacraments to draw men to heaven (Cf. Job 33:15-18). St. Thomas Aquinas affirms the same as he points out “It belongs to the excellence of Christ power, that He (Christ) could bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the exterior sacrament.”

St. Thomas Aquinas states that" a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ’s Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him.
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Carole
 
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DEESYPAL:
I came upon this Evangelical apologetics website with this quote

‘When the thief died on the cross, he had but just believed, and had never done a single good work. But where did he go? He ought to have gone to purgatory by rights if ever anybody did. But instead of that the Saviour said to him, “Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Why? Because the ground of the man’s admission into Paradise was perfect.’

C.H. SPURGEON — MTP Vol 12 pg. 562

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/romancatholic.html
Click to expand...
I know this must be a recurring issue against the balances of faith and works, but could someone please ease my distress about this lolz :DHi DEESYPAL,
Odd…my wife and I were just talking about this the other day & I said that one thing that I love about being Catholic is the way it deals with Christian suffering.

In fact I brought up that I had heard this very argument recently, so I guess someone had been reading the same sources.

St. Dismas’ sufferings in jail and on the cross beside Jesus as well as his confession, contrition, repentance, and expressed faith in Our Lord were all factors in his salvation. I commented at the time that the Gospels say that both these men lingered on long after Jesus died (Remember the broken legs?) and so it occurs to me that Dismas’ temporal debt for sin was accomplished there in all that he suffered. As a result, there might well have been no remaining purgatorial debt to expiate.

***Luke 23:39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil. 42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.***

Pax vobiscum,
 
I would say that the grace of God place the repentant thief on the right hand of “God’s priest” Himself, so he was able to confess to Him right before his death.

But the next day when Jesus met Mary of Magdala, we remember that Jesus said to her “do not touch me for I have not ascended to My Father”. It was on saturday morning.

This will only mean that the place called “Paradise” is not the same place as the one Jesus refering to when He said “I have not ascended to My Father”. But yes “Paradise” should be a place of “pardoned” sinners.

I do not think his suffering on the cross is counted as “good deed” for it was a consequence of his own “bad deeds” in the past. Rather the punishment he deserved was “lightened” when he received pardon. The other thief was not as fortunate-- he was on Jesus left hand-- he did not receive the grace, thus unrepentant, he was punished as he deserved.
 
As others have noted, Dismas, the good thief, DID do good works: confession, sorrow for sins, asking for mercy, his suffering on the cross, his admonition of sinners, his expression of faith–these are all good works, done for the love of Christ.

The purification of his soul through suffering, which is purgatory, was begun and perhaps completed right there on the cross.
 
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