The Good Thief

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hi, ive heard people use the passage when jesus tells the good theif, this day you shall be with me in paradise to try to dispute purgatory… they say look he says you shall be with me in paradise, he doesnt say purgatory… what should i tell people who make this claim ?? god bless
 
The Good Thief can also be used as evidence of Christ’s authority, exercised today through His Church, to issue indulgences, to give remission of time in purgatory for particular acts of mercy and repentance, as is the case with the Good Theif’s confession and his kind words to Christ.
 
John89 said:
hi, ive heard people use the passage when jesus tells the good theif, this day you shall be with me in paradise to try to dispute purgatory… they say look he says you shall be with me in paradise, he doesnt say purgatory… what should i tell people who make this claim ?? god bless
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You have to remember that the good thief was being crucified at the time. Obviously, this was a very painful process. People can offer up suffering to take time off of purgatory. I’m guessing that the suffering he had on the cross was a purification process for him.
 
  1. There is the problem of punctuation which does not exist in the Greek manuscripts. Is it “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” or does the comma go here: “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Neither version actually excludes Purgatory, since we don’t know if Purgatory takes place in “time”…it could be an instant to us…
  2. If the thief’s contrition was perfect, which it seems to have been, and his suffering purified him, he certainly may not have gone to Purgatory.
  3. I believe it’s Karl Keating who said that heaven was not open until the Resurrection anyway, so you know Jesus could not have literally meant that day. Maybe someone else can confirm if I heard this correctly?
 
MarcoPolo said:
  1. There is the problem of punctuation which does not exist in the Greek manuscripts. Is it “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” or does the comma go here: “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Neither version actually excludes Purgatory, since we don’t know if Purgatory takes place in “time”…it could be an instant to us…
  2. If the thief’s contrition was perfect, which it seems to have been, and his suffering purified him, he certainly may not have gone to Purgatory.
  3. I believe it’s Karl Keating who said that heaven was not open until the Resurrection anyway, so you know Jesus could not have literally meant that day. Maybe someone else can confirm if I heard this correctly?
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I have heard believe that Jesus didn’t go to Heaven on Good Friday (as a Man anyway). (But if I am correct Jesus was never detached from the Blessed Trinity, so was always in the Highest Heaven.)

Otherwise maybe there wouldnt need to be so much emphasis on the Ascension as an event, if not long previously he was in Heaven again.

Also, Jesus before the third day He went to the underworld though not Limbo, to free the righteous men and women of previous generations. Maybe that place was the Paradise Jesus was talking about.

Btw, I have my own question. When Jesus freed the souls from the underworld did they go into Heaven before Jesus did?
 
MH84 said:
I have heard believe that Jesus didn’t go to Heaven on Good Friday (as a Man anyway). (But if I am correct Jesus was never detached from the Blessed Trinity, so was always in the Highest Heaven.)

Otherwise maybe there wouldnt need to be so much emphasis on the Ascension as an event, if not long previously he was in Heaven again.

Also, Jesus before the third day He went to the underworld though not Limbo, to free the righteous men and women of previous generations. Maybe that place was the Paradise Jesus was talking about.

Btw, I have my own question. When Jesus freed the souls from the underworld did they go into Heaven before Jesus did?
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He didn’t go to Heaven on Good Friday - that’s our dogma, it’s in the Creed we recite every Sunday. We say ‘He descended to hell (or to the dead)’, meaning He descended to the (righteous) dead in Limbo first. And only rose on the third day.

He went to Limbo to bring those there the good news of salvation and that heaven would now be open for them.

Then again it could simply be a misplaced comma - the ancients didn’t use commas. It could be He was saying ‘I tell you this day (now)… (that) you will be with me in Paradise (at an unspecified future time)’.
 
I think that maybe in someway because is Jesus is part of the Blessed Trinity, that He was always present in Heaven in someway or not?

I am thinking :eek: 😃 …If we say that Jesus was not present in Heaven at all, that means we have to say that when the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus at the Baptism, there was only the Father ‘present’ in Heaven while the two Divine Persons were on Earth for that moment.

So if this has any merit at all, what do we say that the Ascension of Jesus into Heaven meant. His glorious return into Heaven as God-Messiah, true God and true Man? Wasnt Jesus always connected to the Godhead, I believe so, so does that mean he was always in some way present in Heaven while he was on Earth?
 
Mind you, Jesus also said PARADISE, not heaven. When Christ died his soul went to the Abode of the Dead where he preached repentence to the righteous dead.

Also, once again we have the issue of IS purgatory a PLACE and do we spend TIME there. Officially, purgatory is a PROCESS…neither place nor time are officially mentioned by the Church…just the process. Place and time are human conceptions we employ in an attempt to understand eternity…just one amateur’s opinion.
 
God is eternal.

If God resides in Heaven then Heaven is eternal.

Eternal is:


4.Metaphysics.existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change.

American Heritage Dictionary
  1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time.
Time is a remarkable dimension.

The shallow mind can only comprehend time in a 2 dimensional concept which renders three conditions past, present, and future. It cannot comprehend anything being outside of time.
 
DL82 said:
The Good Thief can also be used as evidence of Christ’s authority, exercised today through His Church, to issue indulgences, to give remission of time in purgatory for particular acts of mercy and repentance, as is the case with the Good Theif’s confession and his kind words to Christ.
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that is correct. The Church’s teaching is that the willful acceptance of just punishment removes the temporal debt of the sin commited.

Willful acceptance of just capital punishment is a Plenary Indulgence, which removes all temporal debt.
 
This passage has been use to explain the Church’s belief in a baptism of desire. The Good Thief, desiring to be with God and do his will, died before he could be baptized.

According to our teaching, baptism wipes out all punishment due to actual sin as well as heals the soul from original sin. So the Good Thief would not have suffered purgatory any more than any newly baptized Christian should they die immediately after baptism.

As to when Heaven was opened. There is no way to determine when Jesus moved from Hell (Limbo of the Fathers) to Heaven. Did he do this instantaneously on his death and spend time in Heaven, or spend many hours in Limbo before bringing them home? We only know the resurrection occured after sunset Saturday (the official start of Easter).
 
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