The Gospel according to John

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abucs said:
One obvious reason for doubt for such articles is the lack of evidence presented therein when an assertion is made.
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This was not a scholarly article. As the last line of it says “This text was prepared by members of the Catholic-Jewish Conference to aid both Christians and Jews in understanding the importance of historical context in interpreting the Scriptures.” Documentation of the sort you are requesting was probably deemed inappropriate. The Catholic-Jewish Conference, which includes the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, a council of rabbis and some other groups, is the authority behind the document.

If you want some documentation of something, I might be able to point you to some. I suggest reading Raymond Brown’s The Churches the Apostles Left Behind. My guess is that most of the document is based on it, so you will find the documentation there, along with succinct explanations.
 
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abucs said:
this is an assertion that needs the evidence presented in order to judge the reliability of the assertion.

As a consumer of the article the weakness is on taking this assertion uncritically and not asking for evidence of what is asserted.
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I am actually answering Buddy1’s obscure “Deemed inappropriate?” Your remarks give me better access to the issues.

In an academic setting, every assertion of fact should be supported by evidence. There are rules about what evidence is appropriate, when it is right to cite an authority’s opinion, etc.That is what you are asking for, and I and others would be happy to discuss some of that.

There are other times when such documentation is a distraction. If your mother tells you “Be nice” do you discuss moral imperatives with her, or ask about behavioralist philosophies? Those are probably inappropriate responses, depending on your mother.

This is not an academic article. If it were, it would have evidence that would allow you to judge each individual statement. They are not asking you to critique their ideas.

The authority behind this document is the Catholic Jewish Conference, not the evidence for each statement. It is intended to support a reader so that they can better understand the gospels. It does not give every controversy on every issue presented, as an academic paper might. Instead it gives you the opinion of this Conference, or the members who wrote it. They expect you to trust them so that you might be able to read the Gospels without 15 years of academic preparation. Adding the critical academic information might be nice for some people, but others would get distracted and discouraged and give up on reading the Gospels altogether. So they deemed it inappropriate to include the needed footnotes.

The consumer of this article is expected to take most assertions uncritically, relying on the writers, the organization, and the sponsoring bodies. Probably you should keep in mind that they are the authority, and they can be wrong. But they are offering a vision of the gospels that goes beyond a collection of details, and they are expressing these ideas in the context of church and synagogue.
 
The Scriptures are Divinely Inspired. But what would be the implications of saying instead; the authours where inspired by God to write the Gospels?
 
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For me the change in language would signify a lower level of acceptance for the involvement of God in the actual content of the Bible.
 
So there would be a significant difference in me saying that the authors where inspired to write the scriptures vs the actual words written where inspired by God?
 
I do not understand the distinction you are making so it is hard to answer your question.

Vatican 2’s teaching on this subject is:
This Gospel had been promised in former times through the prophets, and Christ Himself had fulfilled it and promulgated it with His lips. This commission was faithfully fulfilled by the Apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with Him, and from what He did, or what they had learned through the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The commission was fulfilled, too, by those Apostles and apostolic men who under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit committed the message of salvation to writing.
Dei Verbum 7
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For me such a change would reflect a higher level of involvement by God in the creation of Scripture. It means God was active in the people and community, creating not just a Scripture, but also a community that accepted it as their own.
 
I know I’m moving further away from the original article cited but this will still be related: I heard that the Gospel of John was more or less written by John’s disciples and and was more or less a theological reflection on the fact that they where dieing and the fact that of the Second Coming wasn’t happening caused the community to pause and reflect upon what this all meant in light of the death of Jesus and the first generations of the Christan communities that the followers of Jesus founded. Is this accurate?
 
The distinction I’m trying to make is: if I was inspired by God to call somebody I hadn’t talked to in awhile but the disciples were also inspired by God to write the scriptures which is one is the case. Is it the same divine inspiration? I would lean towards the understanding that the two are not the same. Is my search in the right direction?
 
The 21st chapter of John seems to be an add on of some kind. There is a conclusion at the end of chapter 20, and another one at the end of 21.

This final chapter is about resurrection appearances of Jesus and is a little different stylistically in some people’s opinion. At one point, St Peter asks Jesus about the Beloved disciple who wrote the gospel:
When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about him?”Jesus said to him, “What if I want him to remain until I come? What concern is it of yours? You follow me.” So the word spread among the brothers that that disciple would not die. But Jesus had not told him that he would not die, just “What if I want him to remain until I come? [What concern is it of yours?]”
John 21:21-23
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So I would say yes, this is a theological reflection about the death of the author and the saying “what if I want him to remain until I come?”. Written by him before he died? Someone else after? Idk. But it tells of events not told earlier that clarifies a misimpression about the unrecorded incident. “The word spread among the brothers that that disciple would not die.” A proper interpretation is offered to the brothers= a theological reflection on the death of the disciple by the community because it is a dialogue between the brothers who understood Jesus one way, and the author who had a different idea of what the prophecy meant.
 
Buddy1 said:
I know I’m moving further away from the original article cited but this will still be related: I heard that the Gospel of John was more or less written by John’s disciples and and was more or less a theological reflection on the fact that they where dieing and the fact that of the Second Coming wasn’t happening caused the community to pause and reflect upon what this all meant in light of the death of Jesus and the first generations of the Christan communities that the followers of Jesus founded. Is this accurate?
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For me the most sensible explanation is that St John the apostle wrote the gospel and the last chapter was written as an addendum after John had died by someone clearly closely related to John.

The last chapter is preceded by what looks like the original ending and it seems the last chapter was added in a similar way you mention.

This could be because Saint John was the last of the living apostles and as the chapter clearly states some people thought the Second Coming would be before the death of the last apostle.

Hence the need to write an addendum to the apostle’s gospel after he had died.
 
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Buddy1 said:
So there would be a significant difference in me saying that the authors where inspired to write the scriptures vs the actual words written where inspired by God?
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It would be like saying God inspired me to go to the local Church.

The inspiration is in the deciding to do something rather than the actual process or finished product,

Saying God inspired me to go to the local church doesn’t necessarily mean goes was helping to place my feet one after the other in the process of going to the church.

Likewise using the language “God inspired someone to write a gospel” doesn’t necessarily imply it was God having a hand in the actual words.

Lots of examples

Federer inspired me to play tennis

Trump inspired me to start a YouTube channel

My mother inspired me to look after sick animals

My Father inspired me to go through higher education

In all of these examples the inspiration is in the desire to act not the details of acting.
 
Buddy1 said:
if I was inspired by God to call somebody I hadn’t talked to in awhile but the disciples were also inspired by God to write the scriptures which is one is the case. Is it the same divine inspiration?
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A stronger sense of inspiration is generally implied for literary works than for calling a friend or other simpler tasks. Dante was inspired by Beatrix to write the Divine Comedy. Yes, she was at the beginning, but she accompanies him throughout. Less in Inferon and Purgatorio, but more explicitly as he wals through Paradise. She guides him to see and to reveal the beauty of Heaven.

That gives you a taste of what inspiration meant. With the Scriptures, the process is even more intimate, with the Holy Spirit inspiring not just the overall project, but also every story about Christ is written with Christ’s Spirit, ensuring that the writing is true to Christ. There are different ways that it might happen, but the Church has always said that God wrote the Bible, as did the author’s. The Holy Spirit did not dictate the text, but guided the author to choose the right words, to express the right sentiments, to tell the right stories.

It is not always easy to describe an intimate cooperation like that. Everyone constantly struggles. So I would say yes, you are grappling with the issues like most people do.
 
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