The Gospel and Hell

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Could you explain about your first answer when you say ‘Not if that person is sincere’. If they sincerely reject Jesus, they still have a chance at eternal life? I’m confused…
My statement was too cryptic - for which I apologise. I meant that those who don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God don’t necessarily go to hell. In a secular society many people are brainwashed into thinking religion is mere superstition. The odds are stacked against them but what counts is not what we claim to believe but the way we live. 🙂
 
I’m not exactly sure where to put the line on how much you have to understand about Christianity before rejecting what you think it is is actually rejecting it itself. But I think we would both agree that there is one - if someone in the middle of a jungle somewhere hears that some people think that because someone was executed a long time ago, good stuff can happen (and nothing else), that amount of knowledge about what the word Christianity means is not enough to damn someone if they don’t accept it as true.

Likewise, if someone has been utterly convinced (through no fault of his own) that the word Christianity refers and only refers to, say, beliefs of the Westboro Baptist variety, and knows no other alternatives, I think we would probably agree that for that person to reject what he thinks the word means would not only not be damning, but would be good.

But aside from extremes, I don’t know how much ignorance or false ideas would reduce culpability for rejecting the faith by how much.

It is dogma that that Mary was born without original sin. I can be misinformed about this dogma, without being so because I reject Christ. I can simply not understand why it is true, and not understand that I need to accept it despite this (well, I can’t, as I am now, but someone could) and still be trying to follow Christ while in my head thinking that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is false.

I would be wrong. Gravely so. But it might not be something I was culpable for.

I can not know who Jesus is, and reject all false notions of Him that I have been presented. In this case I am not rejecting Christ, but rejecting falsehoods, true. But since I don’t know who Jesus is, I am not explicitly accepting Him either. And so, because I do not even know who He is, I would verbally reject the dogmatic statement that God became Man, because I don’t know what the word God refers to and do not explicitly realize even that there is a reference for the word “God” - even while at the same time doing my best to seek goodness and truth.

That is, I can explicitly say that I reject any sentence involving the word "God: (God became Man, God is Triune) because I don’t know who God is but without actually rejecting God (Truth, Goodness) Himself. And again, not being culpable for this requires confusion on my part.

Of course you might say that rejecting false conceptions of dogma doesn’t count as rejecting dogma (so isn’t mortal sin), and that if we do not have any idea what the true dogma actually is (through no fault of our own), then by failing to accept it (through no fault of our own) we are not necessarily committing mortal sin. This would, I think, be an equivalent way of phrasing my point.
👍 We are not expected to be infallible but impeccable!
 
My statement was too cryptic - for which I apologise. I meant that those who don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God don’t necessarily go to hell. In a secular society many people are brainwashed into thinking religion is mere superstition. The odds are stacked against them but what counts is not what we claim to believe but the way we live. 🙂
Thank you for your response. Is there any Church teachings that would defend what you are saying? Anything in the CCC? I’m still struggling with the idea of people not believing Jesus is the Son of God and yet being granted eternal life. Also, I believe there are a lot of people living a good life, that won’t make it to heaven. It’s my understanding that without believing in Jesus, you have no shot at eternal life, because He came to make the sacrifice for sin (which we alone could never do) which then makes us righteous before God. But it’s only through believing in Jesus that we gain that.

John 3:16 (NRSVCE)

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

John 20:31 (NRSVCE)

31 But these are written so that you may come to believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah,** the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.

1 John 4:15 (NRSVCE)

15 God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God.

1 John 5:5 (NRSVCE)

5 Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 (NRSVCE)

10 Those who believe in the Son of God have the testimony in their hearts. Those who do not believe in God[a] have made him a liar by not believing in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son.

1 John 5:12 (NRSVCE)

12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

and there are other verses…

I just don’t think the Church would teach against not believing in Jesus as the Son of God and still gain eternal life, but I could be corrected with the CCC (or other Church doctrine) showing that your point is correct.

Thanks again and I’m trying to understand!**
 
Invincible ignorance about Jesus is not the same as rejecting Jesus.

We are all subject to the natural law (conscience) and will be rewarded or punished because of our thoughts and deeds.

But total rejection of God is not excused. Atheists don’t get to do an end run around God and get rewarded for their efforts.

Jesus doesn’t say that if we reject him its all right, as long as we are sincere.

We can always persuade ourselves that we are sincere, but that doesn’t make it so.

Jesus knows what is in our hearts.

The fool in his heart says there is no God. (Psalms 1)

He has fooled (deceived) himself.
 
Invincible ignorance about Jesus is not the same as rejecting Jesus.

We are all subject to the natural law (conscience) and will be rewarded or punished because of our thoughts and deeds.
Absolutely true, but the question remains - what exactly is rejecting Jesus? Does (wrongly) thinking that the historical person named Jesus was not God count? It can, obviously, but must it?

I would say no, because such a thought can be a result of confusions stemming from invincible ignorance.
But total rejection of God is not excused. Atheists don’t get to do an end run around God and get rewarded for their efforts.
Jesus doesn’t say that if we reject him its all right, as long as we are sincere.
We can always persuade ourselves that we are sincere, but that doesn’t make it so.
Jesus knows what is in our hearts.
The fool in his heart says there is no God. (Psalms 1)
He has fooled (deceived) himself.
I think there is a difference in what we mean by “sincere”. Clearly, demons sincerely reject Christ in the sense that they absolutely, completely, and knowingly have decided not to follow Him, and that didn’t work out so well for them. But I suspect what is meant is something more along the lines of “according to the best our reason can do, given our situation, while honestly and truly seeking goodness and truth.”

Again, it comes down to what the phrase “reject Jesus” means. And of course it doesn’t matter if we have lied to ourselves and said we are sincere. If in the end we have chosen to align ourselves against God, against Goodness and Truth, then we just go to hell. But what I am saying is that an explicit rejection of the idea that there is a being called God that exists need not be the same as this, and if it’s not then we may yet be ok - as well as that invincible ignorance doesn’t necessarily die as soon as one hears word “Christianity”.

Or in short, we may be fools, but if we are not culpable for our foolishness, then God can lead us to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him. (CCC 846-848, plus other stuff I quoted earlier.) If my experience teaching has taught me anything, it’s that if there are no fools in heaven, then it must be a sparsely populated place.
 
Thank you for your response. Is there any Church teachings that would defend what you are saying? Anything in the CCC? I’m still struggling with the idea of people not believing Jesus is the Son of God and yet being granted eternal life. Also, I believe there are a lot of people living a good life, that won’t make it to heaven. It’s my understanding that without believing in Jesus, you have no shot at eternal life, because He came to make the sacrifice for sin (which we alone could never do) which then makes us righteous before God. But it’s only through believing in Jesus that we gain that.

John 3:16 (NRSVCE)

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.

John 20:31 (NRSVCE)

31 But these are written so that you may come to believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah,** the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.

1 John 4:15 (NRSVCE)

15 God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God.

1 John 5:5 (NRSVCE)

5 Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:10 (NRSVCE)

10 Those who believe in the Son of God have the testimony in their hearts. Those who do not believe in God[a] have made him a liar by not believing in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son.

1 John 5:12 (NRSVCE)

12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

and there are other verses…

I just don’t think the Church would teach against not believing in Jesus as the Son of God and still gain eternal life, but I could be corrected with the CCC (or other Church doctrine) showing that your point is correct.

Thanks again and I’m trying to understand!**
The previous poster referred to invincible ignorance which is an incontestable fact of life. It is unjust to condemn persons who don’t believe in God through no fault of their own. It amounts to believing the sacrifice made by Jesus on the Cross is powerless to save them from hell. In other words divine love is defeated by human limitations - which is absurd:

037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a** willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, **and persistence in it until the end.
 
The previous poster referred to invincible ignorance which is an incontestable fact of life. It is unjust to condemn persons who don’t believe in God through no fault of their own. It amounts to believing the sacrifice made by Jesus on the Cross is powerless to save them from hell. In other words divine love is defeated by human limitations - which is absurd:

037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a** willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, **and persistence in it until the end.
The pre-Columbians would fall in the category of invincibly ignorant?
What about a person who attends RCIA and decides not to be baptized?
 
The pre-Columbians would fall in the category of invincibly ignorant?
What about a person who attends RCIA and decides not to be baptized?
Yes, anyone who is in a situation where it is impossible to receive Christ would be invincibly ignorant.

Each person must accept baptism willingly. If they do not, they are not truly baptized. An insincere baptism is pointless. If a person delays baptism, they have not yet received the grace of the Holy Spirit into their heart. Since they are sincerely seeking God and they have not taken on the responsibilities that Baptism entails. They are still mere infants in faith, in a sense, and are judged as such.

If someone resolves never to be baptized much would depend on his reason for refusing. If there was true ignorance on his part, God will consider that.
 
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