The Gospel of John is the only book needed for salvation...

[Della]

1 Peter 3. If you go on to read it also says this water “symoblizes” the baptism that now saves you also–not a removal of dirt from the body but the “pledge” of a good cpnscience toward God. The not removal of dirt from the body is it does not remove sin (dirt) from the body. Now it don’t say baptism is necessary for salvation.

Dirt from the body means just that. You are the one arguing against the plain meaning of the text to try to make it say what you already believe. The fact is that every Christian on planet earth believed baptism is necessary for salvation until after the reformation–that’s 16 centuries of truth killed by people deciding to throw out the ancient teaching of Christ for their own ideas. Truly sad.

Mark 16:16 goes on to say but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Here it don’t say whoever is does not believe and not baptized will be condemned. Once again it don’t say it is necessary for salvation.

The latter part of the verse in no way negates the first. Jesus commands us to be baptized. He never commanded anything that wasn’t necessary for our salvation. Never. You are denying Christ’s own command by trying to deny his words here.

Yes there are some Christians that believe they can not sin which is a sad mistake on their part. All Christians sin, each and every one sins.

And why do they believe that? Because they’ve taken it upon themselves, as you have, to interpret the Bible as they want to read it, not as it fits into the teachings of Christ passed down to us through the Apostles. It’s what you get when you divorce the Bible from the teaching authority Christ gave to his Church.

 

[SonCatcher]

1 Peter 3. If you go on to read it also says this water “symoblizes” the baptism that now saves you also–not a removal of dirt from the body but the “pledge” of a good cpnscience toward God. The not removal of dirt from the body is it does not remove sin (dirt) from the body. Now it don’t say baptism is necessary for salvation.

Mark 16:16 goes on to say but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Here it don’t say whoever is does not believe and not baptized will be condemned. Once again it don’t say it is necessary for salvation.

Yes there are some Christians that believe they can not sin which is a sad mistake on their part. All Christians sin, each and every one sins.

Friend, sometimes “dirt” just means “dirt.” Once I would have accepted much of your argument but even then, it was plain that St. Peter meant “dirt” when he wrote “dirt.” Analyzing the passage grammatically:

The water of the Flood, according to St. Peter, symbolizes (or prefigures) Baptism. Thus, Baptism is not the symbol. What is it “which saves you now”? The way the verse is constructed, it seems to only apply to Baptism. You don’t offer any alternative meaning for “which saves you now.” I challenge you to do so. It must be grammatically connected to the phrase. We are talking about Scripture here, not theory.

Now the effect of Baptism is also explained. St. Peter says it is not effective because it removes dirt from the body (face it, at least some dirt is going to be washed away - Peter is not claiming this physical dirt remains but that its efficacy is not due to physical cleaning). The effect of Baptism is a “clear conscience.” How is the “clear conscience” achieved? “through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What is Baptism? In St. Peter’s words here, it is an appeal (or pledge) to God.

What is a “clear conscience”? It is the effect of Baptism. It is what Baptism does when it “saves you.” How can one have a clear conscience? I suspect one only can by never sinning or by having sin forgiven. If you have any credible alternative for what “clear conscience” means, please offer it.

(BTW - you are technically correct that St. Peter does not say “baptism is necessary for salvation” in this passage. He says “baptism saves you” (referring to the recipients of his letter), which is entirely different. Baptism is the “ordinary” means Jesus gave to us to be saved. He is not limited to save only the baptized. Jesus could theoretically save a pagan who never heard the Gospel. Since we Christians are given an “ordinary” means of Salvation (not that Salvation is “ordinary” in any way), it behooves us to avail ourselves of it.)

 

[rev_kevin]

Dirt from the body means just that. You are the one arguing against the plain meaning of the text to try to make it say what you already believe. The fact is that every Christian on planet earth believed baptism is necessary for salvation until after the reformation–that’s 16 centuries of truth killed by people deciding to throw out the ancient teaching of Christ for their own ideas. Truly sad.

The latter part of the verse in no way negates the first. Jesus commands us to be baptized. He never commanded anything that wasn’t necessary for our salvation. Never. You are denying Christ’s own command by trying to deny his words here.

And why do they believe that? Because they’ve taken it upon themselves, as you have, to interpret the Bible as they want to read it, not as it fits into the teachings of Christ passed down to us through the Apostles. It’s what you get when you divorce the Bible from the teaching authority Christ gave to his Church.

Question not answered. You gave me a bunch of talk but did not answer my question.
Where does it say that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Why would I believe that you ask. “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Notice the words “All have sinned.” Thats why.

No not denying Christ’s own command by trying to deny his words. He does not say it is necessary for salvation. Show me where Jesus says baptism is necessary for salvation.

 

[rev_kevin]

Friend, sometimes “dirt” just means “dirt.” Once I would have accepted much of your argument but even then, it was plain that St. Peter meant “dirt” when he wrote “dirt.” Analyzing the passage grammatically:

The water of the Flood, according to St. Peter, symbolizes (or prefigures) Baptism. Thus, Baptism is not the symbol. What is it “which saves you now”? The way the verse is constructed, it seems to only apply to Baptism. You don’t offer any alternative meaning for “which saves you now.” I challenge you to do so. It must be grammatically connected to the phrase. We are talking about Scripture here, not theory.

Now the effect of Baptism is also explained. St. Peter says it is not effective because it removes dirt from the body (face it, at least some dirt is going to be washed away - Peter is not claiming this physical dirt remains but that its efficacy is not due to physical cleaning). The effect of Baptism is a “clear conscience.” How is the “clear conscience” achieved? “through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

What is Baptism? In St. Peter’s words here, it is an appeal (or pledge) to God.

What is a “clear conscience”? It is the effect of Baptism. It is what Baptism does when it “saves you.” How can one have a clear conscience? I suspect one only can by never sinning or by having sin forgiven. If you have any credible alternative for what “clear conscience” means, please offer it.

(BTW - you are technically correct that St. Peter does not say “baptism is necessary for salvation” in this passage. He says “baptism saves you” (referring to the recipients of his letter), which is entirely different. Baptism is the “ordinary” means Jesus gave to us to be saved. He is not limited to save only the baptized. Jesus could theoretically save a pagan who never heard the Gospel. Since we Christians are given an “ordinary” means of Salvation (not that Salvation is “ordinary” in any way), it behooves us to avail ourselves of it.)

Talking about Salvation. You can be saved and still not have salvation. One can be saved but loose their salvation.

Yes Jesus could save anyone who never heard the Gospel, but if baptism is necessary for salvation and according to you that is what Jesus taught then why would he go against his own teaching?

If a clear conscience is through the resurrection of Jesus then the man on the cross that Jesus said he would be with him in paradice did not have a clear conscience because Jesus had not died yet and had not yet been resurrected.

But question still not answered, where did Jesus say baptism is necessary for salvation?

 

[SonCatcher]

Talking about Salvation. You can be saved and still not have salvation. One can be saved but loose their salvation.

What hair are you splitting here? This is honestly the first time I have ever heard a Baptist claim someone could lose salvation.

Yes Jesus could save anyone who never heard the Gospel, but if baptism is necessary for salvation and according to you that is what Jesus taught then why would he go against his own teaching?

You’re confusing me with someone else.

God is not limited by the order and rule He gave us. In order for us to bring someone to Christ, we must baptize them. God has no such limitation. Since Jesus is God, He has no such limitation, either.

If a clear conscience is through the resurrection of Jesus then the man on the cross that Jesus said he would be with him in paradice did not have a clear conscience because Jesus had not died yet and had not yet been resurrected.

Again, there is no limitation for God. The man crucified next to Jesus may have been with the “prisoners” Peter spoke of. “Paradise” does not necessarily mean “Heaven,” after all. It could just as well have been the “Bosom of Abraham.”

But question still not answered, where did Jesus say baptism is necessary for salvation?

I never asserted Jesus said that. Jesus did, however, instruct us to baptize so that people could be saved.

“He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.”
“Make disciples of all nations … baptizing them …”

These are not exclusive statements on salvation. There are commands and assurances regarding the Sacrament of Baptism.

Again, Baptism is the “ordinary” means given to Christians to bring disciples to salvation in Christ. It is the only way we can say a person is saved (so long as he remains in a state of grace). We have no way to determine whether an unbaptized person might be saved.

If you read the Catechism, you will find that the Church recognizes situations where a person may die without having received baptism yet desiring it. She recognizes these people receive the grace of baptism at their death by virtue of their desire for baptism.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I believe you misunderstood what I was talking about when John said “repent for the Kingdom of heaven is near.” I was talking about the “baptism” part not the “repentance.” part. I never said that “repentance” is not necessary for salvation.

Not disobeying Jesus’ command at all, I do go and baptize but he did not say baptism is necessary for salvation.

Jesus was put to death with 2 other people. Chances are neither of the 2 were baptized.
(You’ll probably say, how do I know they weren’t. I don’t thats why I said “Chances are.”)Now Jesus said to one of them, “from this day you will be with me in paradise.” No baptism here yet he was saved because he believed who Jesus said he was.
Jesus always said, “he who believes in me will not parish but have everlasting life.” Jesus didn’t say “he who believes in me and is baptized will not parish but have everlasting life.”

You have not shown me it is necessary for salvation.

Humnnnn! but Jesus did say, unless one is borne of water and Spirit, he will not entered the Kingdom of God. do you think that this has to do with Baptism?

 

[SnakeMauler]

Though it is an amazing book and I love reading it and know it way better than the other Gospels, I highly doubt it is all one needs to go to heaven. Otherwise, what did Christians who lived in between the period of Jesus’s death and when the Gospel of John was written do?

 

[Asbury]

To say that the Gospel of John is the only book needed for salvation sounds a wee bit gnostic. I mean as Christians we do not believe that one must acquire some sort of secret knowledge necessary to be saved. Instead the books of the bible serve to enlighten our understanding of God and how he desires that we should live our lives in service to our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not the understanding of right doctrine and theology that leads to salvation but the life you lead in faith in Christ, sharing Christ love to others, obeying his commands and ordinances, serving him though works and deeds, and participating in the sacraments that he established.

 

[rev_kevin]

What hair are you splitting here? This is honestly the first time I have ever heard a Baptist claim someone could lose salvation.

You’re confusing me with someone else.

God is not limited by the order and rule He gave us. In order for us to bring someone to Christ, we must baptize them. God has no such limitation. Since Jesus is God, He has no such limitation, either.

Again, there is no limitation for God. The man crucified next to Jesus may have been with the “prisoners” Peter spoke of. “Paradise” does not necessarily mean “Heaven,” after all. It could just as well have been the “Bosom of Abraham.”
I never asserted Jesus said that. Jesus did, however, instruct us to baptize so that people could be saved.

“He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.”
“Make disciples of all nations … baptizing them …”

These are not exclusive statements on salvation. There are commands and assurances regarding the Sacrament of Baptism.

Again, Baptism is the “ordinary” means given to Christians to bring disciples to salvation in Christ. It is the only way we can say a person is saved (so long as he remains in a state of grace). We have no way to determine whether an unbaptized person might be saved.

If you read the Catechism, you will find that the Church recognizes situations where a person may die without having received baptism yet desiring it. She recognizes these people receive the grace of baptism at their death by virtue of their desire for baptism.

I don’t know what Baptists you know but that is what we believe. One can loose their salvation.

Sure God is not limited but why would he go against what he has taught us?

You will be with me in paradise don’t mean heaven. If he was to be with Jesus in paradise and Jesus was going to heaven it would stand to reason that paradise is heaven or was Jesus going to the bosom of Abraham?

Jesus didn’t say it was necessary for salvation.

Again talking about salvation not being saved.

So if one desires to be baptized but dies before they are baptized they still recieve the grace of baptism by virtue of their desire. Where is this taught in the Bible?

 

[rev_kevin]

Humnnnn! but Jesus did say, unless one is borne of water and Spirit, he will not entered the Kingdom of God. do you think that this has to do with Baptism?

Book, chapter, and verse please.

 

[ERose]

This is the first I have heard about John 3:16 being the only thing we think is needed for salvation. It goes farther than that. If you continue on with 17-21 it goes in a little deeper into what we believe.
Now for baptism, where does it say that it is necessary for salvation? I don’t see where Jesus said you must be baptized inorder to be saved. Jesus didn’t need to be saved but he was baptized. John didn’t say you must be baptized inorder to be saved. He said “repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is near.” (John 3:2-3) Then he goes on in John 3:11 and says “I baptize you with water for repentance.”
Where does it say it is necessary for salvation?

How about reading the first part of John chapter 3 for starters? “Unless one be reborn of water and the Holy Spirit, one cannot enter the Kingdom of God” How about reading Mark 16: [15] And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Then the Eucharist, once again I see nowhere where it states that it is necessary for salvation.

Let us stay in the gospel of John Ch 6: *[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. *

Then I see you used “Personal” savior. For some reason this “personal” thing gets under some Catholics skin, why?

The only thing that gets us in a crawl is the abuse of the term. Is Christ my personal Lord and Savior? Thank God yes He is. But because I am called to believe in my Lord requires more than just a proclamation, but requires me believing His word and following Him in everything.

We can do anything we want at the end of the day because we are saved. I have never heard of this. Of course we can’t do anything we want. we still must go by the commandments of Christ, we are still responsible for our sins, we can loose our salvation.

I have debated too many Protestants on this subject not to think otherwise. I am not saying that every Protestant denomination believes this but many do and this belief is the road to perdition.

I am saved because Christ is in my life and once he is in my life he will always be there. We may give up on Christ but Christ will never give up on us. Once saved always saved, once you accept Christ he will always be with you no matter what.

It seems to me that this statement contradict your previous one. So which one do you believe. Are you always saved or can you loose your salvation?

We don’t have to worry about sin because Christians don’t truly sin is a new one for me. I have never heard of this. See “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We are all sinners, every single one of us. We worry about sin because sin takes us away from Christ.

I am glad you do not believe this. There are many that do though.

Call it the “devils doctrine” all you want, I know better. See it don’t fit in your belief so it automatically is from the devil.

I wished you did. Hopefully if you stay on this forum God will help you in learning better. I pray God be with you thoughout your travels and may we meet under the Tree of Life in the next Life.

God bless.

 

[ERose]

1 Peter 3. If you go on to read it also says this water “symoblizes” the baptism that now saves you also–not a removal of dirt from the body but the “pledge” of a good cpnscience toward God. The not removal of dirt from the body is it does not remove sin (dirt) from the body. Now it don’t say baptism is necessary for salvation.

Water is a symbolism. The washing of the body with water symbolized what is happening inside to your spirit. Water cannot wash away your sin directly but symbolizes the washing away of sins by the power of God.

Mark 16:16 goes on to say but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Here it don’t say whoever is does not believe and not baptized will be condemned. Once again it don’t say it is necessary for salvation.

It says believe and be baptised and you shall be saved. It is not hard to see the “and”. When “and” is used in basic logic it means that both are true and in this case required.

Yes there are some Christians that believe they can not sin which is a sad mistake on their part. All Christians sin, each and every one sins.

Yes there is and I am glad you also think so.

God bless.

 

[SonCatcher]

wisdomseeker:

Humnnnn! but Jesus did say, unless one is borne of water and Spirit, he will not entered the Kingdom of God. do you think that this has to do with Baptism?

Book, chapter, and verse please.

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[SonCatcher]

I don’t know what Baptists you know but that is what we believe. One can loose their salvation.

Most Baptists I have had theological discussions with are SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) and subscribe rather heavily to OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved). In their theology, if a person ever has the appearance of being saved and then enters (or returns to) a life contrary to the Gospel, that that person’s apparent salvation must have been fraudulent from the first.

Sure God is not limited but why would he go against what he has taught us?

You will be with me in paradise don’t mean heaven. If he was to be with Jesus in paradise and Jesus was going to heaven it would stand to reason that paradise is heaven or was Jesus going to the bosom of Abraham?

Apostles' creed:

He descended to the dead.

The Apostles’ Creed is one of the oldest statements of faith in existence. Tradition holds it was composed by the Apostles, themselves. When Jesus died, he entered the same place those who died before went to. It is called, variously: Sheol, Hades, Bosom of Abraham, Netherworld, Hell*.

When Jesus died, He did not immediately enter Heaven. Rather, he went where all the human souls were waiting (referring to Peter’s “prisoners” of 1 Pet 3:19). They could now meet the Christ and He opened Heaven to those who would enter. But Jesus himself was resurrected, instead.

• “Hell” here does not refer to the place of the damned - it’s just a place where the souls of dead people go.

Jesus didn’t say it was necessary for salvation.

Again talking about salvation not being saved.

I don’t understand the distinction. Please explain your definition of “salvation” versus your definition of “saved”

So if one desires to be baptized but dies before they are baptized they still recieve the grace of baptism by virtue of their desire. Where is this taught in the Bible?

It isn’t. It is a recognition that God’s ability is unlimited even though ours is.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Apostles’ Creed is one of the oldest statements of faith in existence. Tradition holds it was composed by the Apostles, themselves. When Jesus died, he entered the same place those who died before went to. It is called, variously: Sheol, Hades, Bosom of Abraham, Netherworld, Hell*.

When Jesus died, He did not immediately enter Heaven. Rather, he went where all the human souls were waiting (referring to Peter’s “prisoners” of 1 Pet 3:19). They could now meet the Christ and He opened Heaven to those who would enter. But Jesus himself was resurrected, instead.

• “Hell” here does not refer to the place of the damned - it’s just a place where the souls of dead people go.

Quote:

Christ did enter.Hell were the souls were damned, as the Word then was to be known there also. .

As far as reading just John? After reading, all the Bible, many have their favorites, I like Mark and John. I see nothing wrong with having favorite chapers in Verse. Still need to comprehend the entire Bible though.

Gary

 

[SonCatcher]

Gary,

Most theologians do not share that view, but it does exist. Indeed, I once wrote an article (now lost to the ether of web 1.0) supporting that view that Jesus entered the place of the damned but no longer hold it myself.

Creeds.net discusses the controversy in some detail. Wikipedia also has an entry.

The point I made, however, is that Jesus did not immediately enter Heaven upon His death. The meaning of “Hell” is secondary to my point.

 

[agent_grey]

The belief that any book is needed for salvation is Idolatry.

 

[rev_kevin]

How about reading the first part of John chapter 3 for starters? “Unless one be reborn of water and the Holy Spirit, one cannot enter the Kingdom of God” How about reading Mark 16: [15] And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Let us stay in the gospel of John Ch 6: [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

The only thing that gets us in a crawl is the abuse of the term. Is Christ my personal Lord and Savior? Thank God yes He is. But because I am called to believe in my Lord requires more than just a proclamation, but requires me believing His word and following Him in everything.

I have debated too many Protestants on this subject not to think otherwise. I am not saying that every Protestant denomination believes this but many do and this belief is the road to perdition.

It seems to me that this statement contradict your previous one. So which one do you believe. Are you always saved or can you loose your salvation?

I am glad you do not believe this. There are many that do though.

I wished you did. Hopefully if you stay on this forum God will help you in learning better. I pray God be with you thoughout your travels and may we meet under the Tree of Life in the next Life.

God bless.

Lets look at what the Bible teaches about being saved or salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind. (Including baptism) Ephesians 2:8-9.
“Belief” is necessary for salvation, which is consistant with all the other verses in the Bible that deal with salvation especially where only “belief” or “faith” is mentioned. (John 3:18, 5:28, 12:44, 20:13, 1 John 5:13)
“He who “believes” and is baptized will be saved. He who “does not believe” will be condemned.”
Here the deternining factor if one is saved or condemned is whether or not they “believe.” So if baptism is necessary to be saved it would say, “He who “does not believe” and is “not baptized” will be condemned.” But this statement is not found. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that if you are not baptized you will be condemned.
The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone.
Throughout the Bible people have been saved without being baptized.
Baptism is a testimony of faith and a public declaration that one believes in Jesus Christ.
The Bible never says if you are not baptized you are not saved.

Abuse of the term. Youi mean like “we have been around for 2000 years” or “we are the church founded by Jesus Christ” or “by what authority.” Terms like that?

Well all I can say is their wrong.

You are always saved once you accept Jesus Christ but you can loose your salvation, your path to heaven if you go against Jesus Christ. Jesus will never leave us once we accept him, (bings saved) but when we sin we are out of fellowship with Jesus (can loose our salvation, heaven)

Thanks for the prayers.

 

[pablope]

Lets look at what the Bible teaches about being saved or salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind. (Including baptism) Ephesians 2:8-9.
“Belief” is necessary for salvation, which is consistant with all the other verses in the Bible that deal with salvation especially where only “belief” or “faith” is mentioned. (John 3:18, 5:28, 12:44, 20:13, 1 John 5:13)
“He who “believes” and is baptized will be saved. He who “does not believe” will be condemned.”
.
Baptism is a testimony of faith and a public declaration that one believes in Jesus Christ

**You are always saved once you accept Jesus Christ but you can loose your salvation, your path to heaven if you go against Jesus Christ. Jesus will never leave us once we accept him, (bings saved) but when we sin we are out of fellowship with Jesus (can loose our salvation, heaven)**Thanks for the prayers.

Rev Kev…

Question: Then how do you keep yourself saved? How does one keep oneself from sinning? And when one sins, how does one regain salvation?

And what of one’s faith, what if it becomes dormant, it becomes slothful…does one remain saved?

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev Kev…

Question: Then how do you keep yourself saved? How does one keep oneself from sinning? And when one sins, how does one regain salvation?

And what of one’s faith, what if it becomes dormant, it becomes slothful…does one remain saved?

Once you accept Jesus you are saved. He will never leave you. You can’t, “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We are all sinners. Confessing your sins daily to God.

Once you accept Jesus you are saved even if ones faith becomes dormant, Jesus will never leave you once you accept him.