The Gospels are Myths (and other obvious observations)

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This whole discussion belongs some where besides in the Philosophy forums. This is not a discussion about philosophy but about religion.

That said, I never try to argue with an athiest or a skeptic. Because I have found that fundamentally, they really do not want to believe. The Catholic Religion and the Jewish Religion are based on faith essentially. We can point to the reasonableness of them, we cannot prove conclusively that what we believe is true. Faith in God, in the Scriptures is a matter of grace in the final analysis.
 
Well, I thought it was clear from context, but when I say “exist,” I’m talking about things that exist independently from the human mind.

I grant that there are a wide variety of concepts that we’ve created that “exist” in the sense that they are thoughts in the minds of people. But there’s not some transcendent “Number One” floating in the astral plane somewhere.
Well I’m not necessarily saying that the “Number One” is floating around in the astral plane somewhere either, but nor do I see it as something whose existence is dependent upon the human mind. If that were so, how could it be a universal constant? The number one exists, it also exists independent of the human mind, and it does not affect the world in detectable ways. The number one is just as immaterial as the items listed in your signature quote from Thomas Jefferson.
I’ll refine my statement: When I say that an entity exists, I mean that this entity affects the world in detectable ways.
If a non-entity can exist and not affect the world in detectable ways then why not an entity?
Why does your proposed definition for existence have different rules for entities and non-entities?
And why does the possibility of existence for entities hinge on whether or not they affect the physical environment in a way that is specifically detectable by a 21st Century human being (which I’m guessing is the application of your use of the term “detectable ways”)?
 
So try the repeatable, reproducible experiment, if your belief and faith, even in atheism, won’t get in the way. And for you Catholics, fear not. St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Teresa of Avisa, St John of the Cross, Meister Eckhart, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Catherine of Sienna, and many others all have gone before you. Fear not, you will not be deceived. 🙂
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Tuno my brother, a brief pondering; every spoke in a wheel has its own equal value in importance, not one expendable. If even one is left out, the circumference of the wheel becomes distorted. All of the pieces are required to proceed smoothly if you get my meaning.

God’s light…
 
And I will also say the most direct way to learn if there is a God is to turn oneself over to Him and be open to Him, but that takes faith.
Just this.

The Gospel is a dead letter if your eyes are closed. The Word of God is somebody, not something. Until you experience the presence of Christ, accept the forgiveness of God and the love of the Holy Spirit the Bible will remain a collection of words merely to be sifted, measured, studied and dissected like all other written works.
 
And the resurrection should very well be a remarkable and inconceivable event, shouldn’t it… for human beings. But for a supernatural being? Now in all honesty, do you reject every event that has been classified as supernatural? I don’t believe you would as you seem more inclined to hold interest in matters of open science and the eventual possibilities. I could be wrong and if so please feel free to correct me.
I don’t reject the idea of miracles or the supernatural out of hand. It’s an open possibility. But the nature of a miracle is by definition a highly exceptional event, which means that it would require some quite extraordinary evidence to accept for reasonable judges. Like I regularly mention here, if I tell you I have a pickup truck, you’d not require a lot of evidence or documentation to accept that claim from me – it’s a very ordinary, unremarkable claim in contemporary America. But if I told you I had a pickup truck that could take me to the surface of the moon and back, and that I’ve driven it there many times, you’d rightly be skeptical of such a claim. It’s unheard of, and seems problematic on several practical levels.

But we can conceive of evidence whereby I could prove my claim if it were indeed true, and similarly, even for a resurrection (perhaps not on 2000 years ago) I can conceive of documentary evidence that would be convincing as to the reasonable belief in the idea that a man dead three days was brought back to life and good health.

It’s a bit offensive to ask me (or you) to take such a claim on “I saw it happen”, though. Even if I was the one who saw it happen, I would understand it to be a totally unbelievable account for me to give, and that if I didn’t have a lot more to back me up, I’d be foolish to expect anyone to believe me on just my word.
When it comes to truth my friend, unless there is something corrupt in a legal case, truth is truth and there is no adversity to me or any other professional investigator I know on a personal level between truth in the Justice system or truth in apologetics.
The only adversity I ever experienced in the criminal justice system was its abuse when it occurred and I was not shy of pursuing those issues either… Although I will be the first to admit I had occasions to make adversaries in high places at times.
Perhaps not, but it is totally, beyond-the-pale unreasonable for a judge or jury to accept claims of resurrection on hearsay evidence. That’s just nuts.
You have expressed a great deal more thought and consideration in your argument than I have heard from some, and I do respect and appreciate your thoughtfulness, but you have not taken into account many aspects of the matter as I have presented throughout this thread, which I believe you were not previously directly involved in.
You’re right, and without going back at the moment, I certainly am aware not only of the reasons many other believers embrace the Gospel beyond “courtroom evidence” – personal revelation, testimony of friends and family as to the power of God’s transforming power in the lives of men, etc – but as a Christian for several decades, I had my own internal reasons and priorities that commended belief in God and the salvation of Jesus Christ. I can’t see into anyone’s heart or brain, but I can say that as a matter of courtroom evidence, it’s really a non-starter, the claims of the Gospel. If they are going to obtain through reasoning (or without offending reasoning), they will obtain on other grounds.
Research in general does not turn away from matters that could be considered of a supernatural or Godly origin just because they may be so difficult to acquire “evidence” from… one would in all due honesty expect such possibilities would be inconceivable and I for one would hope they would not be of complete human understanding, that in itself would be contradictory. This is the reason there are so many fields of study involved and so many avenues to research and gather from for those who do not believe in God but do want to know the truth and come as close as humanly possible to it.
Hmmm. Well, that seems to rest on some pretty ambitious ideas about the motives of the entire unbelieving community, not just as a whole, or as examples of “bad apples”, but every one of them. For me, that idea ended up being a prick to my conscience that I was fooling myself, as I had to impugn the integrity and motives of all the unbelievers I tangled with. At some point the reassurance that “unbelievers are just desperate to avoid the truth”, and living examples of denial of Romans 1, etc., wears thin, and the conscience becomes aware that it has been simply feeding anodyne lines to itself to avoid facing facts.
An atheist can assume without support they are correct in that there is no God and blow off the fact that there are only approximately 2.3% of the world’s population who do not accept the existence of God, but one of the factors in any research that must be seriously considered is the commonality and corroboration of sources, both in ancient and modern, usually on the scholarly levels. Yet I agree that this too is only a part of the evidence that is accumulated but it is significant.
I agree that a goal and burden for an atheist is some account of the pervasiveness of god-belief and superstition. I think one reason secularism and atheism is on the rise in the last few decades is because our understanding of the natural role of religion in human psychology and culture is becoming more robust and substantial all the time.

Humans are “pre-wired” for imagining gods and for superstitious imaginations.

-TS
 
**twb1621 [/quote said:
]
I can not nor would not attempt to write 6 years of research in this thread to appease those who want physical evidence handed to them and I wouldn‘t be the first to offer it and be rejected out of hand because one does not wish to consider it. (I get wordy enough in case you haven’t noticed).OK, I’m not asking for you to do any of that.
I can refer to sources, many sources that provide the information and findings regardless of the faith of the scholars or lack thereof. But I will say that it is better to search for the truth than to be “inspired” out of one’s ignorance. And I will also say the most direct way to learn if there is a God is to turn oneself over to Him and be open to Him, but that takes faith.
I can say I gave that as good a shot as any man can give, and for a long, long time. And it wasn’t a struggle to believe for a very long period in there, I was a happy, devout, satisfied believer. But as I got older and wiser, and the more I learned about the world around me, the faith remained, but became more and more hard to sustain as the cognitive dissonance mounted and mounted. Surrender and devotion are still problematic if one is looking around in a skeptical, disciplined way. It took a long while for that to become a problem, but it did eventually become a very serious problem.
In regard to Julius Caesar as the author, I have no good reason to insist he was not the author but if you do not have physical evidence that his works were written by his hand rather than by his word and recorded by a study or scribe of his, you have no more justification than that of the written Gospels.
Yes, but that’s granting me everything I ask. I don’t base my life on *The Conquest of Gaul, *or the fact that Julius Caesar wrote it, or even that he was a real, historical figure. I don’t condemn homosexuals to a life of shame and denigration in society for their orientation because of some claim made by Julius Caesar or Plutarch or Cicero. If it turned out that *The Conquest of Gaul *was a hoax after all, it’d just be shrug, and I’ve only accepted that with a kind of depth and gravity that is commensurate with its evidence and its relevance to me. The Bible is completely out of proportion on that level for Christians, with no rational basis for accepting it with the level of trust and certainty often given to it. If Christians regarded the claims of the Bible in a fair and similar way to the claims of Caesar, we’d likely not even recognize the word “Christian” today.

Thanks for the comments.

-TS
 
This is a curious complaint, because I think a court of law, as we understand it to work in western democracies today, would be the apologist’s worst enemy, a scathing rebuke for the kinds of claims the Christian apologist makes when making evidential appeals.
It is ironic that you justify your argument by referring to the way a court of law works in western democracies. All evidence is based on the presumption that we are rational beings rather than just material objects…
 
It is ironic that you justify your argument by referring to the way a court of law works in western democracies. All evidence is based on the presumption that we are rational beings rather than just material objects…
Why do you suppose a rational being is not a material object?

-TS
 
You might start by reading an introduction to the New Testament books in any scholarly edition.
I have over a dozen or so of such books. Your view is simply not supported by them.
Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus is good and accessible, and it can point you toward other sources.
What have you gleaned from Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus that is relevant to this thread? The book mainly discusses the textual fidelity of the New Testament, not its historicity. In any case, you may or may not know that Ehrman has been shown to be very irresponsible with his scholarship, and I can recommend several books which demolish his claims.

It is not looking too good for you if all you can list is Ehrman.
If you honestly think that these texts were authored by “living eyewitnesses,” though, there’s really nothing I can say that will correct your ignorance on the matter.
Make your case. For the last several decades, the dates of authorship for each of the Gospels have been continually pushed back so that the earliest ones are now within the 50’s and 60’s. This is well within living memory of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and the case for later dates has always been highly circumstantial at best and arbitrary at worst. I also think the dates of authorship will be placed earlier and earlier as groupthink yields to new discoveries and insights. In fact, there have been many breakthroughs which date the authorship of Matthew and Mark to the 40’s, but they have yet to pierce through the groupthink of scholars.

As it is, though, the Gospels are far closer to the events they describe than secular histories in antiquity, and in light of what the Gospels, you know, say about themselves on this matter, eyewitness testimony being used is highly plausible. We also have strong internal and external evidence to verify this.

For a recent treatment on this, read Richard Bauckahm’s Jesus and the Eyewitnesses.

May I remind again that the Gospels would be viewed as pristine histories if not for their subject matter.
EDIT: Actually, on second thought, there is something I could say to correct your ignorance. I could point out that scholarly consensus is that the Gospel authors are anonymous and that no one knows exactly who wrote them, as well as the fact that they likely date from a time after most of the supposed “eyewitnesses” would have long been dead.
The authors of the Gospels do not explicitly identify themselves, so they are anonymous in at least that regard. However, to the extent that there is a scholarly consensus on the authorship of the Gospels, it is not that the authors cannot be known. In fact, there is diversity of opinion among scholars. The earliest manuscripts we have attribute authorship to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and, as before, there is strong internal and external evidence to support this so that it falls on the skeptic to make a case.
Yeah! They’d have to make extraordinary claims, like a man doing magic or rising from the dead or something! Oh, wait…
You misunderstand me. What I am saying is that, for your vague skepticism to have any rational basis, the Gospels would have to be very bizarre and weird documents. The Gospels are ancient historiography that intend, quite clearly, to write history. And they, in fact, do write history with accuracy, detail, and precision. The question is Why? To ground a myth so expertly and convincingly in the milieu of the times so as to be a radically deceptive hybrid unprecedented in the ancient world? Is this really the most plausible explanation for the Gospels?

Again, remember, the medium is Hellenistic historiography, not myth. It might be helpful for you to compare and contrast ancient mythic literature with the Gospels and see how radically different the latter are from the former - the historical accuracy and detail of first century Judea present in the Gospels is so radically different from the ahistorical and fantastic exploits of Achilles and Hercules. And had the authors of the Gospels intended to write myth, we would not have seen a passive and persecuted figure, we would not have seen a figure shamed by the unspeakable scandal of the cross, but a figure more in line with Jewish expectations of the Messiah (i.e., a conqueror and political leader). But they didn’t write myth. They wrote history that was well-beyond the Jewish imagination to make up - Jesus of Nazareth is that different. They also wrote history for audiences that were able to verify that history for themselves.

Your vague skepticism also makes the historical events that follow the Gospels to be very bizarre and weird. How could there be a historical movement with no historical basis? Where is the historical movement and history of martyrdom for Achilles and Hercules? What an odd anomaly of history your explanation of the Gospels provides us.

In short, your vague skepticism has no explanatory power whatsoever, and it even conflicts with the information we have.
 
There is just too much information here for my little brain. I read only a little bit and here is my little addition to this post: I believe what the Bible says to be “true” and not mythical (that’s what dragons and flying horses are made of) and the inspired word of God, and that’s that! End of story. 👍
 
I have over a dozen or so of such books. Your view is simply not supported by them.
these stories are not believed by historians to constitute a historical record. if they were viewed that way, christianity would simply be a historical fact rather than a religion. right?
 
You might start by reading an introduction to the New Testament books in any scholarly edition.

Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus is good and accessible, and it can point you toward other sources.
What have you gleaned from Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus that is relevant to this thread? The book mainly discusses the textual fidelity of the New Testament, not its historicity. In any case, you may or may not know that Ehrman has been shown to be very irresponsible with his scholarship, and I can recommend several books which demolish his claims.

It is not looking too good for you if all you can list is Ehrman.
This is well stated, Windfish, and I share your criticism of Dr. Bart Ehrman. Someone else brought up Ehrman awhile ago in this thread, and I responded to it in Post #216:
Ollimac has identified his source as Dr. Bart Ehrman…
Erhman’s conclusions are based more on opinion than any real historical scholarship, and the same can generally be said of others like him who are proponents of the Quest for the Historical Jesus movement. As I presented in Post #216, the wide discrepancy in the conclusions of these authors demonstrates the sort of thing I’m talking about.
 
these stories are not believed by historians to constitute a historical record. if they were viewed that way, christianity would simply be a historical fact rather than a religion. right?
Not necessarily. If the New Testament had no mention of miracles or the supernatural at all, they would be considered the most pristine histories in all of antiquity because of the wealth of manuscript evidence we have, the closeness to the events they describe, the multiple attestation of the events, internal and external evidence which supports their historicity, etc.

You would be surprised, though, on what ordinary secular historians have to say on the Gospels as opposed to Biblical historians. The former are very impressed with all of the above, which is so much more than what they can claim in their fields of study.

But it’s interesting you draw a distinction between history and religion. Christianity is a religion precisely because it acknowledges certain things to be true about history, which is one of its great strengths. Other religions cannot claim such strong historical backing, and it might be instructive to compare, say, Islam, with Christianity on this regard. It might give you a better picture of just how solid the historical grounding for Christianity is. If it weren’t for this solid foundation, it would not have survived in the ruthlessly analytical and critical west, but it has survived through all kinds of scrutiny with not one of its historical claims contradicted.
 
Why do you suppose a rational being is not a material object?

-TS
There is no legal presumption that material objects are persons or responsible for their activity. Moreover there is no evidence that material objects have a mind or mens rea.
The brain is a material object but it is not held responsible for what it does… 🙂
 
There is no legal presumption that material objects are persons or responsible for their activity.
If the material object is a human being, there certainly is.
Moreover there is no evidence that material objects have a mind or mens rea.
Well, there’s the brain! What do see of mental activity when the brain is destroyed?

-TS
 
The number one exists, it also exists independent of the human mind, and it does not affect the world in detectable ways.
No. The concept of the number one exists, dependent on people’s minds. If there were no minds, there would be no one around to think up the concept of “one.”

Let me try to be clear: the idea of “one” is an abstraction from reality. If there were no minds, there would be nothing around to even distinguish one object from another, never mind “count” them.
And why does the possibility of existence for entities hinge on whether or not they affect the physical environment in a way that is specifically detectable by a 21st Century human being (which I’m guessing is the application of your use of the term “detectable ways”)?
No, it’s always possible that an entity could exist. I’m saying that we don’t have a good reason to believe that they do exist unless we have evidence.
 
May I remind again that the Gospels would be viewed as pristine histories if not for their subject matter.
Which is one of the points I made in the OP. I’m fine accepting that there was a moral teacher named Jesus – what I don’t accept are the magical parts of the story, for the same reason that I don’t accept the magical parts of one account of Caesar crossing the Rubicon or the magic ascribed to Roman generals in their histories.

Eyewitness testimony is not sufficient to demonstrate magic.
In fact, there is diversity of opinion among scholars.
Yes, and that diversity testifies to the fact that there is not sufficient evidence for scholars to definitively say who wrote these texts.

Eyewitness testimony is not sufficient to demonstrate magic, and you don’t even necessarily have eyewitness testimony at all.

I apologize for my brevity, but I am being called away as I type this. I want to respond to twb, but it has been a very long thread, and I would appreciate it if he would link to a post of his that contains what he considers to be his best piece of evidence that the Gospels tell a true story.
 
Which is one of the points I made in the OP. I’m fine accepting that there was a moral teacher named Jesus – what I don’t accept are the magical parts of the story, for the same reason that I don’t accept the magical parts of one account of Caesar crossing the Rubicon or the magic ascribed to Roman generals in their histories.
There is simply no comparison between those apocryphal stories and the strength of the primary sources that are the Gospels.
Yes, and that diversity testifies to the fact that there is not sufficient evidence for scholars to definitively say who wrote these texts.
Not at all. There is, generally, a tentative acceptance of the traditional authorship for all four Gospels, mainly because the internal and external evidence is more supportive than not.
Eyewitness testimony is not sufficient to demonstrate magic, and you don’t even necessarily have eyewitness testimony at all.
Eyewitness testimony may not be acceptable to you, but I and many others think it foolish to categorically rule out all eyewitness testimony, especially, as with the Miracle of the Sun, when “magic” is reported by several skeptical eyewitnesses.
 
There’s more reason to believe in the veracity of the alleged divinity of Sathya Sai Baba than to believe in the divinity of Jesus based off of the gospels. Sathya Sai Baba is a modern a south Indian guru who has allegedly done many miracles that Jesus did, including raising people from the dead. His works is attested to by thousands of eyewitnesses. He had a birthday party which over one million people showed up.

answers.com/topic/sathya-sai-baba

My point is, if one rejects the alleged miracles of Sathya Sai Baba, one should reject the alleged miracles of Jesus. If he was around two thousand years ago and had his followers politicize the religion by converting Constantine, it may would probably have a couple billion followers in today’s world.

BTW, the Bible, the alleged “infallible word of God”, has many problems outside the gospels.
 
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