The Gospels had myth added to them later

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Apart from the resurrection, does Paul recount any other of Jesus’s miracles in his letters?
The question isn’t “the miracles of Jesus”, but simply of “miraculous events” (which, as the OP relates, are being questioned simply because of the date at which they were recorded in written form).

Paul mentions that he performed miracles (i.e., ‘mighty works’) a couple of times in his letters: “The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works” (2 Cor 12:12), and again, “I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that from Jerusalem and as far round as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ” (Romans 15:18-19).

The actual events that Paul references are found in the Acts of the Apostles, in which the miracles that Paul performed are recounted.

So, in fact, it’s true – we see “miraculous events” written about well before the writing of the Gospels; and, the presence of these in ‘early writings’ refutes the claim that miraculous events were only inserted into the canonical texts relatively later on… 😉
 
What would you say to people who believe the gospels were historical documents of a historical figure–namely Jesus Christ–but had the more miraculous elements added later. Perhaps added after a generation after Christ so eyewitnesses of the “historical” events couldn’t retort the miraculous “myths.”
I’d start by referring them to Peter Kreeft’s writings. In brief: “(1) The style of the Gospels is radically different from the style of all the myths. Any literary scholar who knows and appreciates myth can verify this. There are no overblown, spectacular, childishly exaggerated events. Nothing is arbitrary. Everything fits in. Everything is meaningful…(2) A second problem is that there was not enough time for myth to develop. The original demythologizers pinned their case onto a late second-century date for the writing of the Gospels; several generations have to pass before the added mythological elements can be mistakenly believed to be facts…We know of other cases where myths and legends of miracles developed around a religious founder–for example, Buddha, Lao-tzu, and Muhammad. In each case, many generations passed before the myth surfaced. The dates for the writing of the Gospels have been pushed back by every empirical manuscript discovery; only abstract hypothesizing pushes the date forward…(3)The myth theory has two layers. The first layer is the historical Jesus, who was not divine, did not claim divinity, performed no miracles, and did not raise from the dead. The second, later, mythologized layer is the Gospels as we have them, with a Jesus who claimed to be divine, performed miracles and rose from the dead. The problem with this theory is simply that there in not the slightest bit of any real evidence whatsoever for the existence of any such first layer…(4)…”

The peace of Christ,
Mark
 
I’ve made the claim that the night my father died, he appeared in my room, he started with an apology for a lifetime of deliberate cruelty, we argued and talked, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifyng scream and then just diaappeared.

I wrote a narrative about it quite some time later. It was probably a good twenty five years later that I wrote about it, although I’d certainly spoken about it to a few people, especially my old pastor when I was still Presbyterian.

I left a few things out of the narrative, and some of the conversation may have been not quite in the order in which it took place, but it happened all right.

So in my peculiar case, there was what you might call a verbal tradition, based on something I’d witnessed myself (unfortunately I didn’t have any other human witnesses, although the apostles certainly did).

Then there was a written tradition, based on my verbal tradition, abouit an event which I happened to experience on the night my father died.

So the apostles didn’t write them down straight away? So what? Richard Dawkins, arch atheist, is 74 this year, but I bet he could still remember what happened on his 21st birthday party, roughly who was there, where it was held, and whether he enjoyed it or not.

This is despite the fact his 21st birthday took place 53 years ago. And I bet he could write some sort of narrative about some of the things that were said and done at his 21st birthday party.

Now that’s regarding a trivial event like an iconic birthday.

How much more then would people remember someone who raised the dead, turned water into wine, killed a fig tree overnight by talking to it, stilled a storm, walked on water, drove out demons, confronted the Sanhedrin and Pilate, lashed the money changers, at whose death the sun stopped shining, the earthquake ripped the temple curtain in two, and then rose from the dead after being crucified?

Christ didn’t write about it because He didn’t need to. He knew precisely who He was, and He knew with absolute certainty that His “words will never die away.”

People who make the sorts of claims about myth in the Gospels just don’t want to believe - full stop. That’s all it is.
For sure! I have an amazing memory and remember dates and events like you wouldn’t believe. You made some very valid points. I’ve been accused of lying when I’ve posted thing in the forum about stuff taught to me in the first, second and third grade. I was told it’s impossible to remember stuff from so long ago, or that I heard things wrong. This was at a catholic school and some of the stuff taught was pretty bizarre. I remember every detail of my 21st birthday and for the record, I enlisted in the USAF 45 years ago today. It was a Friday that day as well. It’s almost 1900hrs, and I was, at this time, boarding the plane for San Antonio, TX.

God bless.

PS. If you want, I can tell you the date of my first date and what we did. : )
 
DaddyGirl
So I think what those people are taking about is that in the 40-70 years while the stories were passed around and passed down verbally, people would embellish along the way.
Hi. The truth about Jesus wasn’t simply passed on by some random memories, a little incident recalled here, a sentence there. Not at all. The Roman and Greek ancient cultures taught by rote memorization - vast amounts of memorization, aided by notes. So did the Jews.

Paul was a Second Temple Jew, who claimed to be passing on ‘paradosis’ and ’ paradidonai’ - these are technical terms, which any Jew would recognize instantly as meaning Paul was receiving and delivering real, binding, oral tradition. Just as Luke and John in later gospels claimed to be passing on ‘paradidoniai’.

Riesner in “Jesus as Preacher and Teacher” insists that “In my opinion, one cannot overstress the importance of the synagogal teaching system as a background for the formation and transmission of the Gospel tradition. The synagogues provided even in small Galilean villages such as Nazareth a kind of popular education system. Many Jewish men could write and write…in comparison with other peoples of the Roman empire the level of Jewish education was rather high.” (p 191).

Riesner argues that “the narrative patterns found in the Gospels were created quite early and in a closes-knit circle…The formulation of the Gospel narratives was made soon after the resurrection of Jesus, probably in the thirties, in and near Jerusalem” (p 333).

For book that explains how the earliest Christians passed on accurate truths pick up “Memory and Manuscript with Tradition and Transmission in Early Christianity” by Birger Gerhardsson. Another good book on the subject: “Jesus and the Oral Gospel” by Wansborough.

God bless Annem
 
PS. If you want, I can tell you the date of my first date and what we did. : )
Er, nah, in the Australian vernacular, “No worries! She’ll be right mate!”

I’ll just take your word for it.

To add a bit about stuff in Grades 1,2 &3, I can still remember when we were learning the addition tables around grade 2 or 3. We were each given a pair of numbers to memorise. Mine were 5 & 9. And that was er, ahem, around 1961 or 1962.

But of course the Gospel writers, or the apostles who spread the word, couldn’t remember accurately events like Peter walking on the water, water being turned into wine etc.

The atheists seem to think that if someone becomes Christian, we park our brains in a shoe box.
 
The question isn’t “the miracles of Jesus”, but simply of “miraculous events” (which, as the OP relates, are being questioned simply because of the date at which they were recorded in written form).

Paul mentions that he performed miracles (i.e., ‘mighty works’) a couple of times in his letters: “The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works” (2 Cor 12:12), and again, “I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has wrought through me to win obedience from the Gentiles, by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that from Jerusalem and as far round as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ” (Romans 15:18-19).

The actual events that Paul references are found in the Acts of the Apostles, in which the miracles that Paul performed are recounted.

So, in fact, it’s true – we see “miraculous events” written about well before the writing of the Gospels; and, the presence of these in ‘early writings’ refutes the claim that miraculous events were only inserted into the canonical texts relatively later on… 😉
I believe the claim was that miraculous events were inserted into the Gospels – not the “canonical texts”.

In any case, I’m not seeing how two ambiguous references to “mighty works” performed by Paul in his letters – without a single reference to any of the many miracles performed by Jesus in the Gospels in those same letters – in any way demonstrates that the Gospel stories weren’t embellished. It may be that there was a tradition of Jesus’s miracle stories predating the Gospels, but it doesn’t appear to be found in the earliest extant Christian texts.
 
People often refer to the supposed “cultural bias” in ancient times, as if there were no bias or limitation now. Keep in mind we live in an anti-miraculous age, at least on campuses. Scholars who actually believe miracles are possible, in Christ’s time or now, have to keep that opinion to themselves or face reduced career options, maybe not get tenure or publication.

This results in a certain skewing of research, certain findings are published and propagated, others will not be. We are not more “objective” than scholars in ancient times. We have a different, possibly more restrictive set of blinders on.
 
Cornbread
It may be that there was a tradition of Jesus’s miracle stories predating the Gospels, but it doesn’t appear to be found in the earliest extant Christian texts.
Hi, this is an interesting comment. However, it appears to draw on scholarship from the first half of the twentieth century - certainly not something more recent biblical scholars would agree with today.

First, because the idea of a “tradition of Jesus’s miracle stories” relies on the guess that many different strands of knowledge were blended into the gospels, and if we could only tease out the earliest version we would at last find the real Jesus.

But it also because very little scholarship had been done on Second Temple Judaism. Well, after fifty and more years of digging into Second Temple Judaism, after all the stunning archaeological finds, especially the Dead Sea scrolls, we are in a very different situation.

I would suggest you start off with “Memory and Manuscript with Tradition and Transmission in Early Christianity” by Birger Gerhardsson. This book has something of an interesting history. When it was first published, many decades ago, it was virtually ignored. It really was the start of a whole new area of biblical scholarship.

God bless Annem
 
I believe the claim was that miraculous events were inserted into the Gospels – not the “canonical texts”.
Gospels are canonical texts. 😉
In any case, I’m not seeing how two ambiguous references to “mighty works” performed by Paul in his letters – without a single reference to any of the many miracles performed by Jesus in the Gospels in those same letters – in any way demonstrates that the Gospel stories weren’t embellished.
Perhaps I should explain, then. I’ll go slower this time. 😉

This isn’t a proof by way of reference; I’m not saying that Paul is referring to miracles that are present in the Gospels and that a direct link from Pauline text to a miracle by Jesus in the Gospels can be drawn.

Rather, I’m pointing out that the claim is that miracles were only added later on in the game – without putting too many words in the OP’s mouth, the typical claim is that later editors (in an attempt to ‘spruce up’ the credibility of the divinity of Jesus) added these miracles to the text out of thin air (as it were 😉 ). If that’s the case, then it’s difficult to see how one might claim that Jesus’ miracles were later additions, but that the miracles of the apostles (which were, of course, only possible through Jesus and in His name!) were present much earlier in the texts! In other words, if Jesus were only performing miracles in later manuscripts, how could it be the case that his apostles were performing miracles in earlier manuscripts? That is to say: if the case is being made that Gospel miracles were later additions, then one would be forced to assert that apostolic miracles were later additions as well.

This brings us to Paul. Luke tells the story of Paul’s (and Peter’s) miracles in the Acts of the Apostles, his ‘sequel’ (if you will) to his Gospel. Luke was written after the other synoptics, but before the Gospel of John. At the very least, it was not the first Gospel to be put into writing, and therefore, Acts was written even later (given that it tells the history of the early Church). However, in the context of the claim we’re discussing, we’re still talking about the timeframe of the construction of the Gospels, not the ‘later’ timeframe in which the miracle stories are said to have been inserted by later editors.

And, we see in Paul’s letters that he himself references the “mighty works” (this is the phrase that is translated as ‘miracle’) that he performed. Now, he doesn’t go into detail; but then again, he’s not writing a narrative or a piece of historical prose – he’s writing a letter to a specific audience who already knows the truth of his claim. What’s important is what he says and how he says it: his claims are of actions that his audience already knows are true; he’s simply reminding them of the actions. What actions is he referencing? The types of actions that Luke (who is writing a history!) details in his narrative. Luke records the apostolic miracles that Paul directly references in his letters.

So: if the claim is that miracle stories only entered the Gospels at a (relatively) later date, then we have a counter-example that demolishes that claim: Luke writes about apostolic miracles – which can only happen if a divine Jesus, too, performed miracles – in Acts. Paul references his own miracles in the letters that are the earliest of Christian writings. In other words, the assertion doesn’t hold up. (Not through a direct citation of the Gospels from Paul, but through his words and their substantiation in Luke’s account.)

Hope that helps.
 
I believe the claim was that miraculous events were inserted into the Gospels – not the “canonical texts”.

In any case, I’m not seeing how two ambiguous references to “mighty works” performed by Paul in his letters – without a single reference to any of the many miracles performed by Jesus in the Gospels in those same letters – in any way demonstrates that the Gospel stories weren’t embellished. It may be that there was a tradition of Jesus’s miracle stories predating the Gospels, but it doesn’t appear to be found in the earliest extant Christian texts.
The reason that the miracles of Jesus were not recorded by Paul is that Paul only encountered Jesus after the Resurrection and did not know Him during His ministry.

What part of WV are you from?
 
Well, the gospels *were *written at least a generation or two after Jesus died.

(Mark was written approx 40 years after…Matthew and Luke approx 10-20 years after that…and then John approx 60-70 years after Jesus was crucified. I think that’s roughly it.)

So I think what those people are taking about is that in the 40-70 years while the stories were passed around and passed down verbally, people would embellish along the way.

I think the gospel named John is the one that has the majority of these “miraculous elements” you mention.
So because it was written so many decades after the fact, and because many scholars believe it could not have been written by an eyewitness or a contemporary…and because many of its details are not included in the earlier gospels…these are just a few reasons why they say these elements were “added later”.

So if a person who survived a concentration camp during the Nazis writes a book about his experience in the concentration camp after the year 2010 you have to immediately assume that the story is false and it was written by someone else because WWII happened over 50 years ago?

That is basically the premise you are presenting. If I don’t write something right away then it is not true. That is silly. Even if we consider that John’s gospel was written 60 years after jesus’ death (which many experts think is debatable) if you take into account thatby the time Jesus died John was a ppretty teen…13 or 14 years at most, and that he died at a very old age, what prevented him from writing later in life? Assuming that he did not author it because he did not do it right away instead at an older age again is silly.

.
 
The story of Apollonius of Tyana is worth looking into–

truthbeknown.com/apollonius.html gives parallels in table form

also on Wikipedia, etc.–do a search on Apollonius

There are a ton of parallels to the life of Christ and/or Paul. So the question is: was his story based on that of Jesus and/or Paul, or vice versa? Or were they independent? Who wrote it? Why? Why did it die out–Christianity triumphed and it was suppressed?

I don’t think personally this invalidates the Gospels, but it does show that these sorts of ideas were “in the air” at the time. Again, watch “Life of Brian.”

I don’t think you can just ignore Apollonius or similar figures. You have to somehow account for them. I suspect maybe 1 in 1000 or fewer Christians is even aware of Apollonius.
 
mamlukman
Code:
Apollonius...There are a ton of parallels to the life of Christ and/or Paul. So the question is: was his story based on that of Jesus and/or Paul, or vice versa?
HI, but Apollonius is not relevant to the gospels, although of course many atheists are eager to suggest he might be.

The facts are these: by about 110 AD Pliny was complaining that all the pagan temples were deserted due to the conversions to Christianity. Within another 30 decades or so after Pliny, we see fake Gnostic gospels spring up. Clearly showing the stunning impact of Christianity upon pagan society.

However, none of the Gnostic gospels, or the story of Apollonius, which was little more than a pagan simulacrum of Jesus, had anything to say about the truth of the real gospels themselves. Other than that Christianity had impacted pagan society with the force of a nuclear bomb.

God bless, Annem
 
The reason that the miracles of Jesus were not recorded by Paul is that Paul only encountered Jesus after the Resurrection and did not know Him during His ministry.
I’m aware of that. However, I’ve been assured by another user in another thread that Paul learned all about Jesus when he visited the apostles in Jerusalem. In addition, Paul would seem to be ignorant of the oral tradition that supposedly ante-dated the written gospels.
What part of WV are you from?
Let’s just say I live below the Grits Line – an imaginary line running east to west below which you can order grits for breakfast without being looked at like you’ve just flown in from Mars.
 
Gospels are canonical texts. 😉

Perhaps I should explain, then. I’ll go slower this time. 😉

…]

Hope that helps.
I’m sorry, but repeating your argument more slowly hasn’t made it more persuasive.
The reason that the miracles of Jesus were not recorded by Paul is that Paul only encountered Jesus after the Resurrection and did not know Him during His ministry.
I’m aware of that. However, I’ve been assured by another user in another thread that Paul learned all about Jesus when he visited the apostles in Jerusalem. In addition, Paul would seem to be ignorant of the oral tradition that supposedly ante-dated the written gospels.
What part of WV are you from?
Let’s just say I live below the Grits Line – an imaginary line running east to west below which you can order grits for breakfast without being looked at like you’ve just flown in from Mars.
 
"cornbread_r2:
In any case, I’m not seeing how…
I’m sorry, but repeating your argument more slowly hasn’t made it more persuasive.
Well, at least now you understand what I’m saying. At least, I think you might… 😉

If the claim is that miracle stories are late additions to the Gospels, could you explain something to me? How is it that we see references to miracles in the earliest canonical writings (i.e., Paul’s letters)? Moreover, how is it that apostolic miracles – which can only occur in the context of ministry subsequent to a divine miracle worker – show up in the early writings and are attributed in other canonical writings?

It would seem that, if you have any explanation – and trust me, I’d really like to hear your explanation! – then that explanation can only be that the entire corpus of writings are corrupted by later editors. And, if that’s your claim ('cause really, that’s the only logical one that you can make), then what proof do you have of it?
I’ve been assured by another user in another thread that Paul learned all about Jesus when he visited the apostles in Jerusalem.
Well, thank goodness that you have the authoritative source of “another user in another thread”…! :rolleyes:

Paul’s own testimony, though, as recorded in his letters, is explicitly that his knowledge comes not from humans but directly from Jesus. Do you need a citation to the relevant Scripture in which he makes that claim, or are you already aware of it?
 
Cornbread:
Paul would seem to be ignorant of the oral tradition that supposedly ante-dated the written gospels.
Hi. However, sorry, but I have to disagree. Of course Paul had heard the life of Christ, his miracles, and so on. He didn’t write them down in his letters because he was writing letters, not gospels. The majority of the epistles were written to people he had spent days and weeks and months and even years giving information to. He scarcely needed to repeat the entire bulk of knowledge they already had.

When was the last time you wrote an email to a friend or your mom or dad and told them the history of your life? Never, of course. They already knew it.

Also, you state Paul was ignorant of “the oral tradition”. Paul himself said he was passing on tradition. He used the words ‘paradosis’ and ’ paradidonai’ which these are technical terms, which any Jew would recognize instantly as meaning Paul was receiving and delivering real, binding, oral tradition. Just as Luke and John and Mark used the word ‘paradidoniai’ and meant it in the same way.

God bless, Annem
 
In addition, Paul would seem to be ignorant of the oral tradition that supposedly ante-dated the written gospels.
Maybe. We don’t know. Paul says almost nothing about Jesus. He visited Jerusalem at least 3 times to consults with Peter et al., but we don’t know what they talked about at those meetings–except for the “Do Gentiles have to become Jews before becoming Christians” controversy. We know that was discussed. But whether he heard stories about Jesus during those trips we just don’t know. To Paul it wasn’t important–if it were important, he would have put more of that type of information in his epistles.

As I said before, there are several reasonable explanations for why Paul doesn’t tell any of the stories about Jesus’s life or miracles. 1) He just didn’t know them 2) He was responding to specific issues in specific cities, and they didn’t have a place 3) His personal revelation about Jesus came in the form of a vision, so that’s what was important to him. 4) He felt other people–the other Apostles and eyewitnesses–were more qualified to tell those stories than he was. Could be any of these reasons or a combination of them.
 
Let’s just say I live below the Grits Line – an imaginary line running east to west below which you can order grits for breakfast without being looked at like you’ve just flown in from Mars.
Would that be south of Beckley?🙂
 
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