The Great Apostasy Debate

  • Thread starter Thread starter tkdnick
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted by TOmNossor
  • Jesus was speaking to the Sadducees who denied the resurrection. It was not critical to expound upon the much deeper truths associated with Eternal Marriage with a group of folks who are unable to accept the more basic truth of the resurrection. This is the “pearls before swine.” Jesus knew these men would only find additional things to ridicule God’s plan were he to attempt to explain more.*
Love in Heaven will not be measured as it is measured here on earth bu us. If you love your family, you will love the whole Holy family in heaven as God through you have loved yours here on earth. Love is love, it has but one origin and all love springs forth from it, in God this kind of love does not change, it does not progress and it is not human. It is what it is. We will all be loved by God; we will love all as God loves us. No need for any kind of conditional love (Marriege) for another in heaven. All will be one and know it. Here we learn to love as families, we are asked to love each other outside of our families the same. Even our enemies. This gives us insight as to Gods kind of love. We learn what it is to loose one that we love here on earth, we start to learn this as children when we loose our first pets. It is all to learn about Gods love (The Cross) for us. But most of all to learn the love that has always been throughout all of eternity, the Most Holy Trinity. All so that we can find our creator, so that we can come home to Him, to share in this love that Jesus has always had. No better gift than this one.

“Yet, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.” ~Isaiah 64:8

.=: M E D I T A T I O N F O R T H E D A Y :=.

The world doesn’t need super men or women, but super-natural people …
people who can turn the self out of their lives and let God’s power work
through them. We can let inspiration take the place of aspiration. We can
seek to grow spiritually, rather than to acquire fame, riches and glory. Our chief
ambition can be to be used by God. God’s power is sufficient for all the
spiritual work in the world. God only needs instruments that are willing to
be used. God’s instruments can remake the world.
……Father Pat
 
"The reality that drove Christ’s celibacy was his conscious experience of a life that originated in heaven.

A life that isn’t subject to death is experienced differently in that the purposes of a heavenly life drive heavenly desires that don’t require the need to reproduce or to survive."

Thanks for that
It is so different from us
catholic-rcia
 
This has been a great thread. I really appreciate everyone’s comments but particularly TOmNossor’s. Many of you are familiar with the thread that I started last November “The Truth about the Mormons from a Devout Mormon”. I couldn’t keep up with it because I didn’t have a strong background in RC beliefs. TOm you have been a bridge for me to come explore the other side of this debate. I know many of you may groan at this statement because you don’t hold the same beliefs as TOm but for me it has really helped.

A question for you TOm. Much of the debate is centered around “The Fathers”. Didn’t the Apostasy begin when there was no Quorum of the Apostles? Without Apostles to ordain new apostles the priesthood authority was lost, right? So these “Fathers” that are being referenced are really the Fathers of the Catholic church and not early Christianity.

BYU-BOY
P.S. tkdnick- I don’t know if it’s to late but the scripture you are looking for in Amos is Amos 3:7.
 
The common LDS understanding of the Apostasy in regards to RC and all other Christian denominations is that the authority has been lost. It makes it hard for us to believe that the RC hasn’t apostistized when there are no prophets and apostles found within the modern RC structure. I would be open to an explanation of why these obvious biblical references are not found today. Thanks.

BYU-BOY
 
BYU,
What Quorum? We do have in Acts where Peter supervises the election of Matthais. We also have evidence that the apostles ordained bishops as their successors. But we have not one tiny bit of evidence that the Mormon church structure ever existed before Smith. Find me an ancient inscription that talks about the 1st Presidency or Seventies. It ain’t there brother.
 
catholic-rcia.com/pages/Popes.html
We have thousands of Apostles, the Pope leads them in Christ. Just like the first Twelve we have some that have been failures. Maybe it’s 1 out of twelve. We have a lot of twleves all over the globe. All Proclaiming Christ Crucified until he come again. It’s the Most Holy Mass.

"One feature of modern times in the Western world is the dazzling array of churches. At the end of the first millennium, there was one united Christian church, with only a couple of separated offshoots; at the end of the second millennium, there are thousands of independent churches.
Yet Christ taught that we are one body. And he promised the apostles to be “with you always, to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). In the midst of all these churches with contradictory beliefs and interpretations, where is Jesus Christ? Who speaks for him today? How do we know who is speaking the truth and who is providing human interpretations and opinions?

Part of sorting out this issue involves asking who today has the faith of the apostles? Early in his public ministry, Jesus chose 12 “to be with him, and to be sent out to proclaim the message” (Mark 3:14). The apostles were not just ordinary followers of Jesus; Jesus identified himself with them. “Whoever welcomes you, welcomes me,” he told them (Matthew 10:40).

At the Last Supper, Jesus made a crucial promise to the 12 which he did not extend to his other followers: “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth” (John 16:13). Thus, while Jesus revealed truth to many people, only the apostles were given a special guarantee of knowing the truth. The Twelve – whose names all four Gospels took care to list – had a charism for keeping the truth intact and revealing it to all humanity.

Christian churches all generally accept the importance of the apostles. Where they begin to differ is on whether the mission of the apostles could be passed on to others as the original 12 died. In the early Christian community, there was widespread belief that Christ’s second coming would take place before the last apostle died.

Many Christian churches believe that the mission of the apostles could not be passed on, that it was unique. They see the apostolic faith being preserved and renewed only through the seemingly random outpouring of charismatic gifts by the Holy Spirit. From this point of view, it is the presence of signs and wonders that is the guarantee of God’s presence in the church.

In one sense, it is true that the apostles’ ministry was unique. They were eyewitnesses to Christ’s public ministry and to his resurrection. When they died, there could be no new Christian revelation.

But in the Scriptures, we see the apostles attempting to pass on the ministry of preserving the truth which was entrusted to them. Of particular interest are the efforts of Paul – who had been accepted as an apostle – to pass on his ministry to Timothy. Indeed, his second letter to Timothy makes little sense except in the context of the passing on of ordained ministry.

Timothy, the first bishop of Ephesus, had received “the gift of God” through the laying-on of hands (2 Timothy 1:6; 1 Timothy 4:14). And he is urged to “Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us” (1 Timothy 1:14). Both Timothy and Titus, though never called apostles, received a mandate to teach, govern, and ordain deacons, priests and bishops. (We have millions around the Globe today)

Thus, although the church is “built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 2:20), their mandate endures even after they are gone. This is the fulfillment of Christ’s promise to be “with you always.”

Continued ----
 
It is also important that there be historic continuity of today’s ordained ministers with the apostles themselves. The apostolic ministry cannot be entrusted to a person by others who have not also received that ministry. If the line of succession is broken, those who come after are not true spiritual successors of the apostles.

Understood in this way, only the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches are true inheritors of the apostolic tradition. This does not mean Christ is not present in other denominations. Those churches can be places for great outpourings of God’s grace. Their members can be baptized, pray and read Scripture.

All this is of great importance. But it does mean that those churches have lost most of the sacraments and have lost the guarantee that they are passing on the teachings of the apostles. And when they confront new questions, not directly dealt with by the apostles, there is no assurance that their answers are the ones that would have been given by Christ and the apostles.

Fidelity to the apostolic tradition is not without consequences for the life of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. This fidelity dictates a hierarchical structure of church and it also gives those churches a special responsibility to work for Christian unity.

Further, rather than being a reason for Catholics and Orthodox to boast, it imposes a duty to submit ourselves to the teaching and authority of the successors of the apostles. We must learn our faith, believe it with great fervor and pass it on to others. Frequently, we must ask ourselves how well we are fulfilling that responsibility.

By GLEN ARGAN
 
Glen & Cestusdei,

Thank you both for your responses.

Cestusdei, the LDS believe that Peter, James, and John are the 1st presidency of the early church. Also scripture does show quorums of Seventies being established. Give me a little time to find the scriptures but I will get back with you.
40.png
catholic-rcia:
only the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches are true inheritors of the apostolic tradition. Glen, I have a hard time understanding your last post. Is the RC Christ Church or is it the OC or do you consider both of them to be the Church Christ established for his believers? If it is both how do you reconsile for the theological differences of the two churches? Thanks for your patience with your non-catholic inquisitor!
 
BYU,
You keep looking. I haven’t read anything in the Bible about the 1st Presidency. Jesus did choose 70 and sent them out, but there is no mention this was an ordained order as you have it in the lds church. Peter was the first pope though, if you look at early church documents you will discover his central role. I look forward to your making your submission to John Paul II, the true key holder.
 
40.png
BYU-BOY:
P.S. tkdnick- I don’t know if it’s to late but the scripture you are looking for in Amos is Amos 3:7.
Click to expand...
Hey, nice to see you again! They closed your other thread because we got off topic.

THANK YOU for the quote!!! I had yet to find it and no one had answered yet.
 
40.png
BYU-BOY:
The common LDS understanding of the Apostasy in regards to RC and all other Christian denominations is that the authority has been lost. It makes it hard for us to believe that the RC hasn’t apostistized when there are no prophets and apostles found within the modern RC structure. I would be open to an explanation of why these obvious biblical references are not found today. Thanks.

BYU-BOY
Click to expand...
About the word apostle, it means “one who is sent on a special mission”. That could be anyone. We are all called to be apostles of Christ in that we are given the special mission of proclaiming the Gospel. Hence, the Catholic Church is FULL of apostles, over 1 billion of them!

As for prophet, that means “one who speaks for God”. We have those too. They’re called Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. Specifically the Pope. No where in the Bible do we find Peter being referred to as “prophet”.

Looking at 1 Corinthians 12:28 “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.” In this verse apostles are first and prophets are second. Looking at this, it seems backwards from your church that has prophets first and apostles second.
 
40.png
BYU-BOY:
The common LDS understanding of the Apostasy in regards to RC and all other Christian denominations is that the authority has been lost. It makes it hard for us to believe that the RC hasn’t apostistized when there are no prophets and apostles found within the modern RC structure. I would be open to an explanation of why these obvious biblical references are not found today. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Here is a quick look at the strict definition of these words.

About the word apostle, it means “one who is sent on a special mission”. That could be anyone. We are all called to be apostles of Christ in that we are given the special mission of proclaiming the Gospel. Hence, the Catholic Church is FULL of apostles, over 1 billion of them!

As for prophet, that means “one who speaks for God”. We have those too. They’re called Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. Specifically the Pope. No where in the Bible do we find Peter being referred to as “prophet”.

Looking at 1 Corinthians 12:28 “And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.” In this verse apostles are first and prophets are second. It seems backwards from your church that has prophets first and apostles second.
 
I find it puzzling, but interesting, that the first time I ever heard of the “Great Apostasy” theory, as the LDS describe it, was from Independent Baptists. Likewise, it was from them that I first learned of a distinct aversion to the cross as a potent symbol of Christ’s victory, which also seems reflected in LDS practice.

Does anyone know if Independent Baptists were around at the same time in history to influence Joseph Smith’s development of LDS teaching? (I rather doubt the IBs would claim influence from the LDS!) He certainly picked up the anti-Catholic sentiments of some other religious groups of his time; it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he appropriated other odds and ends, too.
 
40.png
BYU-BOY:
The common LDS understanding of the Apostasy in regards to RC and all other Christian denominations is that the authority has been lost. It makes it hard for us to believe that the RC hasn’t apostistized when there are no prophets and apostles found within the modern RC structure. I would be open to an explanation of why these obvious biblical references are not found today. Thanks.

BYU-BOY
Click to expand...
First of all, great thread. I’ve wanted to see something like this for a long time. To our LDS friends, it seems like there is much confusion among the LDS as to when the Great Apostacy actually took place. I agree that it means the end of authority, but what is your evidence that the authority ended? So far all we’ve heard from Tom is that he can’t find enough evidence that anyone inherited overall charge of the church after the death of Peter. Yet we have no indication that church authority died with him. The ECF’s believed in a legitimate church passed on through apostolic succession–that much cannot be denied. And every biblical passage I’ve ever heard quoted by a Mormon on the apostacy doesn’t speak of a total apostacy at all. So surely you must have more to show the apostacy occurred, right?

Tom, I think it’s great that you read the Early Church Fathers. At least you have that luxury. I would love it if some Nephites had left behind any writing whatsoever apart from the Book of Mormon. I’ve always found that one hard to swallow–how these people managed to produce a 600+ page book of scripture without leaving behind any other single shred of writing corroborating their existance on this continent.

Isn’t that ironic? The ECF’s wrote all this stuff corroborating biblical events, yet they were apostates. The Nephite civilization wrote nothing corroborating the Book of Mormon, yet they were the genuine article. Bummer, huh?
 
40.png
BYU-BOY:
The common LDS understanding of the Apostasy in regards to RC and all other Christian denominations is that the authority has been lost. It makes it hard for us to believe that the RC hasn’t apostistized when there are no prophets and apostles found within the modern RC structure. I would be open to an explanation of why these obvious biblical references are not found today. Thanks.

BYU-BOY
Click to expand...
There is one major point that I think most LDS don’t get when it comes to the formation of the early church. Jesus did not lay out a detailed blueprint describing every office, every practice, every custom, etc. for the Apostles to build a church. He gave them His authority to make decisions as needed for the church to grow and eventually flourish. He promised the Holy Spirit to guide them along the way. Why would anyone expect the church to look exactly the same now as then? Of course it would develop as it grew. Of course doctrines would be more clearly defined as time went on. That is only reasonable. The question is whether the church failed miserably after the death of Peter and the other Apostles to pass on the authority. Until Mormons or JW’s or any other group provide some solid evidence, I say this proposition is simply absurd.

Jesus did not establish a church with divine authority only to have it fail within one generation of its inception. The idea is so ludicrous I can’t believe anyone entertains the idea without some serious evidence showing otherwise. The earliest writings of the ECF’s confirm that the church survived, and eventually thrived. Now some can pick at this or that quote from Clement or Ignatius or Justin Martyr or Irenaeus, but the simple fact is that they all believed in the continuity of the authority of the church.

The bottom line is this: LDS know that the very existence of their church depends totally on the Great Apostacy. So they must go to great lengths to show it occurred. Now even some Mormons are using the ECF’s to provide some evidence, but in doing so they fall into the trap of dismissing most of what the ECF’s had to say (which is in favor of the continuity of the church), and keeping only what they construe to support their position. Guys, the more you read the ECF’s, the more likely you will someday enroll yourself into the nearest RCIA program and come into the Catholic Church. So keep reading, you’ll get there someday and you will be the best educated Catholics in your parish. And believe me, we need that kind of expertise to teach the millions of Catholics who know so little about Catholicism. Maybe it’s all part of God’s plan to bring all into full communion with the church. It’s already happening with so many ex-Protestant ministers. I don’t think it will stop there.
 
To Chris-WA

Our RCIA takes place in a small town in Utah. We have one who is LDS but will be Baptized this Easter. He knows more about the early church fathers than most, if not all in our Parish. I think you may have hit on something very huge here. God is simply amazing. He always turns eveything into a good thing.
 
The best Catholic Apologist might just come from the Mormon Church. They do have a passion and the aplogist that our coming forth from the Apostolic faith are from the most part converts to the faith. I might ad whom have read the early Churh Fathers.
 
I thought I had retired from this thread, but now that I am waiting for some Coptic Christian responses here are some more words.
40.png
Benadam:
*** Tom, a gnostic christian ? One can’t serve two masters applies here.***
To demand that there is no such thing as Gnostic Christians is to speak from a conclusion not to develop a position. Gnosticism also developed over time. It did/does have roots in pre-Christian beliefs, but so did the Early Christian (orthodox) Church.

Benadam said:
*** could lds even be distinguished from heretics then? If so, how would they be distinguishable?***
Click to expand...

I do not understand what you are pointing to here. LDS are heretics according to Catholics. Most pre-Nicene Saints wrote words that would have them declared heretics in today’s Catholic Church.
40.png
Benadam:
*** It stands to reason it was, it must have been or any subsequent claim to authority is supported by what prerequisite? Obviously authority must become relative in regards of all early Christians in order to believe it can reappear visibly two eons after it is established within time.***

I think there was local and universal authority in the early church, I just do not believe that the universal authority was extended past(or must past) the first century. Catholics and LDS agree the Bible speaks of a church with authority, we just do not agree on whether the Bishop of Rome still possesses that authority.

Benadam said:
*** If a melee existed early in Christianity how can we assume an authority existed? Authority binds, it isn’t a reality that would be lost and without visible witness then reappear with authenticity. What could possibly authenticate authority?***
Click to expand...

Newman suggests that the authority developed. “Love dispenses with laws,” but as conflicts entered into the church the latent authority developed. I agree that the authority developed, I just disagree that it developed from a valid seed that was planted by the Apostles.

Charity, TOm
 
40.png
cestusdei:
Tom,
You are wise not to claim them. I had some great quotes I was going to post from them. But look at how Justin describes the Mass. The worship he describes is Catholic not Mormon. I keep hammering at the idea that these men would not recogize the lds church as being theirs.
Click to expand...
I would not mind if you post how Justin discribes the mass. I already mentioned that Newman and Bishop Kaye suggest Justin’s words point to consubstantiation (not transubstantiation). But I would not be surprised if other aspects of Justin’s thoughts link well with other aspects of the mass.

Charity, TOm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top