The Great Apostasy in the Catholic Church never happened

[ImmaCatholic]

Well, if it was undoubtedly recognized and accepted to be an actual apostasy…what happens when it is not recognized or the ‘definition’ of apostasy is interpreted slightly different?

Kind of like Tyranny in governments, for one to be considered ‘tyrannical’ majority of people have to recognize it as such, and if the definition of ‘tyranny’ is changed or altered, what is tyrannical to one person could be a safe and healthy govt to another.

See what Im saying?

I was actually thinking of this the other day and came up with a refutation for this. The word “apostasy” means (according to Google and probably most dictionaries and even secular sources) the “abandonment” of something. In this case, we would assume that an apostasy would be something abandoning and rejecting God, because there is no greater sin than this. This would lead to an individual being seperated from God.

If you think about it, the main reason why hell is so horrifying is because one is permanently seperated from God. Even in, for example, Dante Alighieri’s “The Divine Comedy,” most of the subjects in the less “severe” circles of hell are not even being tortured; rather, they are depressed due to being isolated from God. An apostasy (abandonment, and therefore, isolation from God) would literally mean that hell had taken over and that, again, directly contradicts what Jesus Christ Himself promised us.

 

[steve_b]

Well, if it was undoubtedly recognized and accepted to be an actual apostasy…

Nope
m:

what happens when it is not recognized or the ‘definition’ of apostasy is interpreted slightly different?

for some definitions 2089 ,

all that is condemned by scripture, all mortal sins, and one does NOT want to die in any of those sins.
m:

Kind of like Tyranny in governments, for one to be considered ‘tyrannical’ majority of people have to recognize it as such, and if the definition of ‘tyranny’ is changed or altered, what is tyrannical to one person could be a safe and healthy govt to another.

See what Im saying?

and here’s what I’m saying

The Catholic Church was founded and established by Jesus. That is absolutely provable and a cinch to prove with evidence that is soooooo easy to provide. Here’s a snippet #34

The Catholic Church has all His promises. It is the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Timothy 3:15 ]. It will be forever… What it binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven…outside of this Church there is no salvation, all according to Jesus.

People can’t play ignorant of the truth. 1791
They must be innocent of their ignorance.

By definition the Church has not and never will be guilty of apostasy

 

[fbl9]

Nope

for some definitions 2089 ,

all that is condemned by scripture, all mortal sins, and one does NOT want to die in any of those sins.

and here’s what I’m saying

The Catholic Church was founded and established by Jesus. That is absolutely provable and a cinch to prove with evidence that is soooooo easy to provide. Here’s a snippet #34

The Catholic Church has all His promises. It is the pillar and foundation of truth 1 Timothy 3:15 ]. It will be forever… What it binds and looses on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven…outside of this Church there is no salvation, all according to Jesus.

People can’t play ignorant of the truth. 1791
They must be innocent of their ignorance.

By definition the Church has not and never will be guilty of apostasy

Let’s change the definition of the church. Being all of all true believers as a collective whole. True believers are those that hold to a set collection of essentials. Although i myself have not been able to locate said collection.

 

[LatinRight]

Let’s change the definition of the church. Being all of all true believers as a collective whole. True believers are those that hold to a set collection of essentials. Although i myself have not been able to locate said collection.

God bless Fb19,

You hit the bulls-eye, in fact the combined elect is the Church, CCC 818, 819, 1271 positively proves that.

The combined elect is the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ.

The Body of Christ/Bride of Christ “Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.” – Eph.2:20-22.

No one can argue with: The Body of Christ/Bride of Christ is the Church of Eph.5:25-32.

And the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ is the holy temple in the Lord of Eph.2:20-22. – There is no other way!!!

The Church/elect individually protected by God’s special grace, “the gift of final perseverance” and the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church, which is the combined elect. – This is the way of the protection of the Church.

The combined elect and the Church is identical, please see: CCC 818, 819, 1271.

God bless.

LatinRight.

 

[LatinRight]

**God bless.

THE PROTECTION OF THE ELECT/CHURCH**

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

A CRUCIAL QUESTION

Does God’s gift of “Final Perseverance” protect the elect/Church not to get into some kind of heresies?

**THE ANSWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

Matt.24:4, 11, 24;**

“Watch out that no one deceives you. Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive if possible, even the elect. End quote.

As we see above, it is a possibility that the elect/Church can deceived and can believe some heresies.

But we also know, this deception cannot be that serious that endanger the salvation of the elect/Church, so “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church," which is the combined elect.

The most serious deception of an the elect can be, all his works can be wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and lose all his reward.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the judgment of our works.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

Let’s change the definition of the church. Being all of all true believers as a collective whole. True believers are those that hold to a set collection of essentials.

So we don’t sell indifferentism,

If one is a “true believers” a term you use, then they are “in” the Catholic Church, doing everything the Church teaches, they are NOT “outside” the Catholic Church.
fb:

Although i myself have not been able to locate said collection.

could you explain?

 

[JPUSC]

The Great Apostasy is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Church’s ultimate trial

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

EWTN: ewtn.com/expert/answers/endtimes.htm

 

[JoeT777]

**God bless.

THE PROTECTION OF THE ELECT/CHURCH**

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

A CRUCIAL QUESTION

Does God’s gift of “Final Perseverance” protect the elect/Church not to get into some kind of heresies?

**THE ANSWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

Matt.24:4, 11, 24;**

“Watch out that no one deceives you. Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive if possible, even the elect. End quote.

As we see above, it is a possibility that the elect/Church can deceived and can believe some heresies.

But we also know, this deception cannot be that serious that endanger the salvation of the elect/Church, so “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church," which is the combined elect.

The most serious deception of an the elect can be, all his works can be wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and lose all his reward.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the judgment of our works.

God bless.

LatinRight

In my mind what is more critical is at what point “the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic which our Savior, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as the pillar and mainstay of the truth.” becomes 'just another Church." [Lumen Gentium] .

Communities in the east are considered to have an “imperfect communion” with Christ’s Church. Those that came out of the ,so called, reformation are separated from communion with the Catholic Church, I might add, of their own will. Many in these separated churches understand themselves to be the Body of Christ and do so citing Vatican II. Many Catholics (Bishops and laity) believe that Baptism opens the door to any number of Kingdoms some as small as an individual person none of which are in any form that could be called unity. Is there a point where seeking universality of salvation Catholicism becomes a superfluous designation or “just another Church” as her sacraments become the ‘right’ of others?

JoeT

 

[fhansen]

**God bless.

THE PROTECTION OF THE ELECT/CHURCH**

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote

A CRUCIAL QUESTION

Does God’s gift of “Final Perseverance” protect the elect/Church not to get into some kind of heresies?

**THE ANSWER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

Matt.24:4, 11, 24;**

“Watch out that no one deceives you. Many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive if possible, even the elect. End quote.

As we see above, it is a possibility that the elect/Church can deceived and can believe some heresies.

But we also know, this deception cannot be that serious that endanger the salvation of the elect/Church, so “the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church," which is the combined elect.

The most serious deception of an the elect can be, all his works can be wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and lose all his reward.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the judgment of our works.

God bless.

LatinRight

But name dropping doesn’t work so well in this case when we acknowledge that both Aquinas and Trent also taught that no one could know with certainty whether or not they, exclusively, are numbered among the elect, whether or not they will ultimately persevere IOW.

 

[fbl9]

So we don’t sell indifferentism,

If one is a “true believers” a term you use, then they are “in” the Catholic Church, doing everything the Church teaches, they are NOT “outside” the Catholic Church.

could you explain?

Sorry i am doing a poor job of being a devil’s advocate here.
I am trying to put forth the non- denominational description of the church. One that is invisible. And only believers who hold to this list of essentials are the body of this invisible church.

 

[steve_b]

God bless Fb19,

You hit the bulls-eye, in fact the combined elect is the Church, CCC 818, 819, 1271 positively proves that.

Latin,

Just a few thoughts

Re: 818

However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Is that opening statement (cannot charge those born into division, with division) a permanent statement? No. And why is that?

Once a person learns the truth, and is no longer ignorant of the truth, THEN they need to make a decision to come home to the Catholic Church, or they WILL be guilty of division if they don’t return home…

Re: ,819

I would just point out in that paragraph, the call is for everyone to Catholic Unity. Obviously one NOT in union with the Catholic Church is not to remain divided from the Catholic Church. There are consequences for that
See 846 that follows (outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation)

(emphasis mine)
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, *** knowing*** that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

that said, we can’t automatically assume people are innocently ignorant of the facts they need to know either. Because ignorance isn’t always innocent. 1791
LR:

1271

The combined elect is the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ.

Re: 1271

A very important statement is made in that paragraph

*** “not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church”***

That is an important distinction being made. IOWthose are NOT “in” union with the Church. IOW they are outside the Church
LR:

The Body of Christ/Bride of Christ “Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.” – Eph.2:20-22.

The combined elect and the Church is identical, please see: CCC 818, 819, 1271.

God bless.

LatinRight.

John 17:20-23 , Jesus gives a command, not a suggestion.

Therefore, there is to be no division, schism, sects, heresies, etc in or from His Church . Those activities are condemned in scripture and Tradition as are those who do them

Just thinking out loud

 

[LatinRight]

In my mind what is more critical is at what point “the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic which our Savior, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd, and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority, which He erected for all ages as the pillar and mainstay of the truth.” becomes 'just another Church." [Lumen Gentium] .

Communities in the east are considered to have an “imperfect communion” with Christ’s Church. Those that came out of the ,so called, reformation are separated from communion with the Catholic Church, I might add, of their own will. Many in these separated churches understand themselves to be the Body of Christ and do so citing Vatican II. Many Catholics (Bishops and laity) believe that Baptism opens the door to any number of Kingdoms some as small as an individual person none of which are in any form that could be called unity. Is there a point where seeking universality of salvation Catholicism becomes a superfluous designation or “just another Church” as her sacraments become the ‘right’ of others?

JoeT

God bless Joe T,

I read your post carefully. I understand you concern.

The Catholic Church never became another Church.

The teaching is fine-tuned to theological facts and the truth.

As it is described in CCC 818, 819, 1271, Our Protestant brothers and sisters are one with us and in union with us in the Body of Christ.

Not in perfect union in our administration, but in perfect union in the Body of Christ.

There is the Catholic (Universal) Church, this is what Christ founded.

At the beginning perhaps, only the Roman Catholic Church filled up the Catholic (Universal) Church. – Probably the confusion comes from here.

But since than other members of the Body of Christ came into too, and I understand for some members not easy to accept the other members of the Body of Christ, but they are our brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ.

You said Joe T:
“Baptism opens the door to any number of Kingdoms some as small as an individual person none of which are in any form that could be called unity.” – Not in unity in the administration, but they are in perfect unity in the Body of Christ.

The combined elect are in perfect unity in the Body of Christ, without being in unity in the administration.

They will be in unity in the administration too.

CCC 847, 848, Explains God can save anyone He wish to save, some as small as an individual person, these people nothing to do with our earthly administration and don’t have to, but they are IN PERFECT UNION with us in the Body of Christ. – God is not bound to our custom, which custom we strongly conditioned to.

We have to open our hearts to the way God doing His salvation and save those whom we thought cannot be saved.

We should be happy for their salvation and we should accept them and love them.

The Catholic (Universal) Church is the Body of Christ, the combined Elect, where ever they are around in the world includes in the Amazon rainforest or one elect in a deserted island.

Can we doubt that God can save one person in a deserted island?

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

But name dropping doesn’t work so well in this case when we acknowledge that both Aquinas and Trent also taught that no one could know with certainty whether or not they, exclusively, are numbered among the elect, whether or not they will ultimately persevere IOW.

God bless Fhansen,

My only aim was to show the way God protecting His Church.

As the combined elect is the Church, by protecting every elect of the Church, in reality this is the highest level of the protection of the Church.

It would be a display of poor knowledge to think and write, God protecting the Church without protecting EVERY MEMBER of the Church.

Even if we not free to know with certainty that we are among the elect, we still can have many clues that we are among the elect such as:

1. Receiving God’s spiritual gift of ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit’ – I read your post in the thread “Faith apart from works” post # 2. From that post I concluded, you know what is ‘Baptism of the Holy Spirit.’

2.** In Catholic theology, only the reprobates can lose salvation who are for their vehement rejection of God and His grace predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.**

1. We also know, in their memory and will don’t have the desire to go to heaven or to have everlasting life. – We have in memory and will only what God put into our memory and will. We have NOTHING what we didn’t get from God.
2. God didn’t predestined the reprobates to heaven and God didn’t give the reprobates His gift of everlasting life in heaven, so God didn’t put into the memory and the will of the reprobates the desire to go to heaven or to have everlasting life with God in heaven.
3. So, if we have a strong desire to go to heaven and to live there forever with God, then we can know, we have the strong desire because God put it into our memory and will for the reason, and the reason is God has chosen us to take us up to heaven.
4. Another clue, if we receive God’s different spiritual Gifts. – God never gives his spiritual gifts to the reprobates.
5. If we have strong zeal to teach the gospel to everyone, we can know we have a zeal for one reason and one reason only, because God put it into our memory and will for the reason to teach the Gospel to everyone.

There are endless clues from we can conclude, we are among the reprobates or we are God’s children/elect.

There are incredible differences between the reprobates who are predestined hell before the foundation of the world for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and God’s children/elect who are new creations, having God’s gift of faith and have new spiritual life.

“The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.” – Rom.8:16.

I agree with you Fhansen: “We’re to obey by the spirit, not the letter, God judges by the heart.”

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

Sorry i am doing a poor job of being a devil’s advocate here.

no sweat
fb:

I am trying to put forth the non- denominational description of the church.

One that is invisible. And only believers who hold to this list of essentials are the body of this invisible church.

Here’s a 5 min answer. catholic.com/video/is-the-church-an-invisible-body-of-believers

 

[RomanoAmerio]

Closer to the truth would be the idea that the *Reformation *was the great apostasy.

If we consider that many of the problems that plague the Catholic Church today can be traced back to ideas that have their roots in the Reformation, then your statement gains both validity and poignancy.

 

[LatinRight]

Latin,

Just a few thoughts

Re: 818

However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Is that opening statement (cannot charge those born into division, with division) a permanent statement? No. And why is that?

Once a person learns the truth, and is no longer ignorant of the truth, THEN they need to make a decision to come home to the Catholic Church, or they WILL be guilty of division if they don’t return home…

Re: ,819

I would just point out in that paragraph, the call is for everyone to Catholic Unity. Obviously one NOT in union with the Catholic Church is not to remain divided from the Catholic Church. There are consequences for that
See 846 that follows (outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation)

(emphasis mine)
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, *** knowing*** that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

that said, we can’t automatically assume people are innocently ignorant of the facts they need to know either. Because ignorance isn’t always innocent. 1791

Re: 1271

A very important statement is made in that paragraph

*** “not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church”***

That is an important distinction being made. IOWthose are NOT “in” union with the Church. IOW they are outside the Church

John 17:20-23 , Jesus gives a command, not a suggestion.

Therefore, there is to be no division, schism, sects, heresies, etc in or from His Church . Those activities are condemned in scripture and Tradition as are those who do them

Just thinking out loud

God bless Steve b,

You said Steve b:
“Once a person learns the truth, and is **no longer ignorant of the truth, **THEN they need to make a decision to come home to the Catholic Church, or they WILL be guilty of division if they don’t return home.”

I more then agree with you!!! Your above statement is the key to the whole matter.

In particular: “Once a person learns the truth part.”

It is** our job **to teach them the truth, but we don’t do our job.

Their Churches 40 % – 60% are X Catholics and those X Catholics doing “far better” job (then we do) by teaching them that our Church is not The One True Church. – So, they are invincible ignorant.

**In fact, we should ask the question from ourselves: **

If we are The One True Church, what is the reason then, the unification between Catholics and Protestants taking place in the Protestant Churches?

I too just thinking out loud.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

God bless Steve b,

You said Steve b:
“Once a person learns the truth, and is **no longer ignorant of the truth, **THEN they need to make a decision to come home to the Catholic Church, or they WILL be guilty of division if they don’t return home.”

I more then agree with you!!! Your above statement is the key to the whole matter.

In particular: “Once a person learns the truth part.”

It is** our job **to teach them the truth, but we don’t do our job.

Their Churches 40 % – 60% are X Catholics and those X Catholics doing “far better” job (then we do) by teaching them that our Church is not The One True Church. – So, they are invincible ignorant.

**In fact, we should ask the question from ourselves: **

If we are The One True Church, what is the reason then, the unification between Catholics and Protestants taking place in the Protestant Churches?

I too just thinking out loud.

God bless.

LatinRight

Just a few thoughts

**Re: invincible ignorance, **#[**14 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13035556&postcount=14)

consider also the following

• newadvent.org/summa/2076.htm

**Re: we don’t do our job
**

• we aren’t judged on successfully changing a person’s direction. All we have to do is give a person the truth ( in all the resources available to us in the Church, which is of avalanche proportion). Grace does the rest AND that person’s openness to receiving that grace. **
  **

**Re: **ex Catholics doing a better job than we do.

• If they really WERE doing a good job of learning the faith, they wouldn’t have left the Church in the first place.

Re: lack of unity

• that has nothing to do with the truth of the Catholic Church
• Satan is busy AND successful in his efforts to snatch souls out of the Church.
• of all the scary passages in scripture, IMV the narrow gate is the scariest.In Context

Jesus is saying if only a few find the narrow gate, that means the rest go to hell

anyway, just a few thoughts

 

[LatinRight]

Just a few thoughts

**Re: invincible ignorance, **#[**14 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13035556&postcount=14)

consider also the following

• newadvent.org/summa/2076.htm

**Re: we don’t do our job
**

• we aren’t judged on successfully changing a person’s direction. All we have to do is give a person the truth ( in all the resources available to us in the Church, which is of avalanche proportion). Grace does the rest AND that person’s openness to receiving that grace. **
  **

**Re: **ex Catholics doing a better job than we do.

• If they really WERE doing a good job of learning the faith, they wouldn’t have left the Church in the first place.

Re: lack of unity

• that has nothing to do with the truth of the Catholic Church
• Satan is busy AND successful in his efforts to snatch souls out of the Church.
• of all the scary passages in scripture, IMV the narrow gate is the scariest.In Context

Jesus is saying if only a few find the narrow gate, that means the rest go to hell

anyway, just a few thoughts

God Bless Steve b,

You saitd:

Re: invincible ignorance, #14

consider also the following
• newadvent.org/summa/2076.htm

I agree.

You said:
Re: we don’t do our job
• we aren’t judged on successfully changing a person’s direction. All we have to do is give a person the truth ( in all the resources available to us in the Church, which is of avalanche proportion). Grace does the rest AND that person’s openness to receiving that grace.

I agree.

For answer the other two issues, I need more time but I will answer them.

God bless

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Just a few thoughts

**Re: invincible ignorance, **#[**14 ** (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13035556&postcount=14)

consider also the following

• newadvent.org/summa/2076.htm

**Re: we don’t do our job
**

• we aren’t judged on successfully changing a person’s direction. All we have to do is give a person the truth ( in all the resources available to us in the Church, which is of avalanche proportion). Grace does the rest AND that person’s openness to receiving that grace. **
  **

**Re: **ex Catholics doing a better job than we do.

• If they really WERE doing a good job of learning the faith, they wouldn’t have left the Church in the first place.

Re: lack of unity

• that has nothing to do with the truth of the Catholic Church
• Satan is busy AND successful in his efforts to snatch souls out of the Church.
• of all the scary passages in scripture, IMV the narrow gate is the scariest.In Context

Jesus is saying if only a few find the narrow gate, that means the rest go to hell

anyway, just a few thoughts

**God bless Steve b,

In general I agree with your above statements.**

I’m sure we both agree, the exodus from our Church is the symptom of the sickness we have.

Let’s act as we are doctors of the Church and stop the symptoms which is the exodus from our Church.

The sequence of events of our works:

To stop the symptom (exodus) first we must find the sickness which cause the symptoms (exodus).

When the sickness found, we must heal the sickness.

When the sickness healed, no symptoms (no exodus).

You Steve said: “Satan is busy AND successful in his efforts to snatch souls out of the Church.”

I believe your above statement is correct.

We all know, Satan doesn’t have a power to take us out one by one.

What he can do is lies and deceit. In fact Christ prophesied this.

Matt.24:4-5, 11, 24;

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

14 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the elect.

2 Cor.11:13-15;

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I agree with you Steve, the exodus is the work of Satan in our Church by successfully snatching souls out of the Church.

How he does it? He does it by planting spiritual traps into the Church which cause the sickness, and the symptom of the sickness is the exodus from our Church, as simple as that.

So, Satan’s spiritual traps causes the sickness, the sickness causes the symptoms which is the exodus.

We need to act as doctors of the Church, need to find Satan’s spiritual traps in the Church, need to eradicate them, this would results the end of sickness, no more symptoms (no more exodus).

So, Steve and all of us we have a job to do. Yes we have the fullness of the truth, this doesn’t mean Satan’s hidden spiritual traps are not in place here.

If wouldn’t be here, wouldn’t be exodus, the exodus proves, Satan’s spiritual traps are in place here, otherwise wouldn’t be exodus.

The question is: **Do we start to work or do nothing **and the exodus continues?

I know Steve, you are perfectly right: “Satan is busy AND successful in his efforts to snatch souls out of the Church.”

Satan has no authority in this Church to snatch souls out of the Church, he does it for one reason, and one reason only, WE LET HIM TO DO IT and we do nothing about it!!!

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[fbl9]

**God bless Steve b,

In general I agree with your above statements.**

snip…

So, Satan’s spiritual traps causes the sickness, the sickness causes the symptoms which is the exodus.

[snip…
LatinRight

I too agree with Steve’s post generally as well.
LR what are the identifiers of the spiritual traps mentioned n your post.
[/QUOTE]