The Great Apostasy

[Chris_Jodrey]

Wow, my first thread…

Anyway, this seems to be the way the thread “ex-mormon wants to talk” is going, so I thought, if we’re going to talk about it at least let’s do it right.

This thread is to discuss the evidences for and against the restorationalist “great apostasy” doctrine. Just a few notes before we really start this up:

There are differences between the LDS concept of it and the way JWs and others think about it. For example, the JWs don’t believe in the priesthood as an important factor. Most don’t.

Also, LDS members have their own opinions on the nature of the apostasy; I know I do. The basic doctrine is that the Church of the New Testament eventually was taken up, or dissolved, or ceased to be some time after the NT comes to a close. It is for that reason that the restoration was necessary. The Church doesn’t mandate details to the way in which that apostasy happened, but the reasons are that the people simply rejected what had been established, just as they had rejected Christ. So, the variations I’m sure you’ll see here are our own opinions and studies, not Church doctrine.

Honestly, I’m lazy when it comes to quoting things, but I can at least provide links and give my views. I’m sure there are many good, level-headed LDS willing to do that. Try to be open-minded because most likely some of you Catholics here don’t yet understand how we LDS think about the apostasy. The evidences and arguments are one thing, but the moral rationale is something else. Also, I’m a little curious as to what these Catholics can give as far as evidence against the apostasy. Maybe I haven’t seen it all yet. So this should be interesting.

Let the mayhem begin!

 

[majick275]

I’ll stick with my original position

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Jodrey
Just to recap a little then: Obviously the world wasn’t ready for the truth when Christ came. That’s unarguable.

Not so fast. It must be arguable because most Christians do believe that Christ came at the right time. The time that God determined. The world was ready. Christ gave us the Gospel and we still have it, preserved form that very time. We see an unbroken line of believers following him form that time to the present. Worshipping him at great risk to life and limb. These early Christina martyrs were still dying for the faith long after the last Apostle had departed. That would seem contraindicted if the LDS apostasy were fact.

Logic dictates that if Christ himself started a church then unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary the church is still there. What appears illogical is that God would leave the entire planet without his church for 1800 years. When has that happened before in scripture? Why would God do that to people? There is no purpose served in starting a church and then taking it right back, especially for that long a time. He has always warned his followers when they strayed, punished them when necessary yet ALWAYS temained their God. At the height of Israel’s worst sinning he stayed with them, calling them to repentance. When there was no repentance he destroyed many in the flood of Noah yet he stayed with Noah and his “church” stayed on earth. Same with Sodom and Gomorah.

Look at what Jesus says, “I am with you always” and “the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. Does any of this sound like a God who just takes his entire gospel/church/etc. away for over a millenium after having it PERFECTLY established by Jesus Christ himself?

What we see in JS is his own belief system evolving over time in such a way as to completely change the entire doctrine of his church. We do NOT see the same or even a similar church as the Apostles of the new testament had. we don’t even see the same church as in the BoM! the LDS church of today is very different than the LDS church of JS. Most of all it is the polar opposite of the church that Jesus founded. The exaltation of man versus the humble worship of God. Look at the thief on the cross and see the church of Jesus. Look to the serpent in the garden for the church of joseph smith.

That the LDS church was persecuted is no more a sign of “truth” than what happened to David Koresh in Waco. Many of the reasons for persecution are even the same!

Glory be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Hi Christ! God bless you for posting.

I won’t go into a lot of specifics on the Mormon Apostasy Theory, but I could believe me. Christ is so much in my life, in the community of believers that when I hear of this my heart becomes so heavy. You see I know the Catholic side very well. I live it, I live for my Christ. So many, thousands have given up their lives to follow him, not for any gain, not for any rewards other than just being with Him. When one speaks of the Apostasy then one does not know Christ, and all you think about is getting that one to know Him in the way so many have come to know Him. Its not about us, it’s all about Him and His love for us. It is all we really have. He is at the head of the Family, there is no family without Him as He, Christ is the Family.

Here is what I have found after many years of searching, I did attend the Mormon Church as a Child and felt good there, a lot of good people trying to do good. But many years later I stumbled on to the Catholic Apostolic faith and began to study it. What I found was 2000 years of sin along with two thousand years of forgiveness. When you find Christ and His Church and come to proclaim it you find that you have spent your life standing in a pond or in a small creek. But then you rise over the hill and for the first time in your life you gaze upon the Ocean. You realize that all the dew drops find there way there one by one. But seeing it is not enough. You run to it and you dive in. This is the Church, this is the Trinity.

Continiued—

 

[catholic-rcia]

My testimony so to speak /

http://www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/Forgive.html /If only my parents had known God

In essence I found a hospital with a lot of ill patients. Patients who attend not to be worthy because most know that they are not, the others are prayed for. I found a Christ that is God which impacted me in a very large way, knowing that it was God himself (The Eternal Son, that whom is loved) who died for me and not just a really good man. That was huge! A real epiphany you might say.

The Cross: http://www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/Cross_page.html

In the Scriptures:

http://www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/Cross_scripture.html

I found the trinity and have come to understand that it is the meaning behind all that exist.

http://www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/trinity_Catholic.html

All that has been gifted life through it. I found that the fall in the garden was a very bad thing, if it did not happen we would all still be in the Grace of our Sole Creator, and yes we would be able to still multiply because God love is given to His creation and in no way would it be held back.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#385’

But it was a fact that it happened, destined to happen because we as humans always turn into ourselves before we turn back to God. (Prodigal Son) This is the lesson learned, the one that sets us free.

http://www.catholic-rcia.com/Parables/Prodigol_son.html

We all go through this. Progression? Not in a worldly sense, rather progression to God, to be with Him, to share the love that Christ and the Father have always shared throughout all of eternity. Christ came to give us a hand up, He reaches down to save us, we cannot save ourselves in any way, shape or form. Being saved is not mandated by what we do or how often we do it. Jesus redeemed us out of certain death by way of the Cross. All we do as Catholics is trust in His mercy. Because we know what Jesus has done for us, as we live this in our daily Mass, we do not want to sin. We do not want to play the part as crucifier. Even though we know that through our sin we do play this part, we then our amazed at His love even though. We come to Jesus as we are, and He loves us in spite of ourselves. He knows the devils spin in our life, this is why He gave us the Mass and the most Holy Sacraments,

http://www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/7sacraments.html

all for us to heal while here in the world. Oh ya the Saints. Now I have come to understand the meaning of the Saints. Simply sinners who grasped on to God with all their heart and all their mind in order to pass the great gift of Christ on to others so that they could heal as well. Here is my Saint, the one that through my wife faith helped bring Christ into my life.

http://www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/cJouges_page.html

And this one who showed me another way:

http://www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/cHumility_page.html

And these ones as well:

http://www.catholic.org/saints/popular.php

God Bless

 

[Mom_of_5]

catholic-rcia,

You said it all beautifully…Amen!

Love and peace,

Mom of 5

 

[edmondhall]

Just to recap a little then: Obviously the world wasn’t ready for the truth when Christ came. That’s unarguable.

Don’t you think God was preparing people for the incarnation through the prophets–and that His arrival was preordained?

Titus 1

1*
Paul, a slave of God and apostle of Jesus Christ for the sake of the faith of God’s chosen ones and the recognition of religious truth,
2
in the hope of eternal life that God, who does not lie, promised before time began,
3
who indeed **at the proper time revealed his word ** in the proclamation with which I was entrusted by the command of God our savior, *

 

[ben_dy]

Chris Jodrey:

I’m not sure I get you there. I thought you were familiar with the basic doctrine of apostasy and restoration, and especially of the mission of Christ. Just to recap a little then: Obviously the world wasn’t ready for the truth when Christ came. That’s unarguable. That’s why when he speaks to his apostles in John he very clearly separates them from the world. The believers’ group was relatively small and the incredulous world around them wasn’t. Christ’s mission meant he had to be crucified. He had to go at a time when the world would not be ready to receive him. As for the Church he left, it stayed separated from the world still. Those who became his disciples were in the world but not of the world. When the apostasy began to take shape the world took over once again and the Church disappeared. The only thing that was redone in the 1800s was the formation of the Church. You seem to be thinking that Christ’s sole purpose in coming to earth was to build his Church, and that’s simply not correct. His purpose was to perform the infinite atonement and make it possible for all men to return to him. The Church is very important, which explains why it was restored, as it is essential in spreading the knowledge of that atonement. But, again, that wasn’t the main reason Jesus had come.

Chris,

The above is quoted from the “ex-mormon” thread…

The ‘great apostasy’ LDS theory (which is common, in some respects, of course, to theories of some fundamentalist churches) is something I’ve never been able to understand how anyone could possibly believe. Even on the very ‘basic’ mormon.org website, there is the paragraph: “After the Apostles and many righteous Church members were killed and other members departed from the truth, the Lord took the priesthood authority and His Church from the earth. Without God’s priesthood authority, the Church no longer functioned as Christ had established it. The ordinances were changed and many plain and simple truths were lost. While many good people and some truth remained, the original Church was lost.”

The implications of this, and of what you wrote, seem to go beyond the incredulous and into what I would consider blasphemy - that God was unable to choose the correct time for his truth to be revealed reminds me of a line that Judas Iscariot sings in Jesus Christ Superstar:

Every time I look at you I don’t understand
Why you let the things you did get so out of hand.
You’d have managed better if you’d had it planned.
Why’d you choose such a backward time in such a strange land?
If you’d come today you could have reached a whole nation.
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication.

Words that those who believe that “the world wasn’t ready for the truth when Christ came” could sing along with in agreement, I suppose.

How can you possibly say that it is “unarguable” that “the world wasn’t ready for the truth when Christ came”? The spread of Christianity - the very history of the Church - is proof that as the Gospel was spread, as it was preached and taught by those who followed in the lineage of the Apostles, those who heard the Word were very much “ready” for it - so much that many sacrificed their lives rather than deny the Truth of the Gospel. The Church that Christ established was very much in evidence and very much in the world but never, save for the sins of greed and power of the sinners who were yet still members of the Body of Christ, “of the world” in it’s doctrine. I don’t deny that the Church now, as then, was comprised of very few saints and overwhelming majority of sinners - but it was for sinners that Christ became man and made a sacrifice of Himself, that we may, through Him, have life. I have never quite understood the “saints” portion of the “Latter-Day Saints” - if all members live a life in which they never sin and are always in a state of sanctifying grace, why bother with Christ at all? The Catholic Church teaches that we are, from birth, sinners whose only hope of salvation is the faith we have in Christ and His Sacrifice for us and the works that we do - we are working out our salvation not only in “fear and trembling” as Paul writes, but also with joy and awe, love and humility, worship and respect, prayer and fasting, and, most importantly, always with a focus on the Cross, on the sacrifice of God become man, and it is, as Paul, again, writes our continuing mission to “preach Christ crucified”. I love 1 Cor 1:18…

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

…continued…

 

[ben_dy]

…continued…

I’ve read president Hinckley’s commentary on the cross - "But for us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the Living Christ.” - and why it is not emphasized in Mormon theology but I am in profound disagreement with him and with that theology. The life of Christ is of great importance, the resurrected Christ perhaps more so (although… well, I’ll leave that be), but there is no resurrected Christ, there is no salvation, without the Sacrifice of the Cross. It seems a particularly American theology - to sanitize the Cross, to forget that it was only through death that God opened the door to life eternal. Throughout the whole of the New Testament, throughout the teachings of the Apostles and their successors, it is the horror, beauty, and awe of Christ crucified that gives us faith and that nourish our minds, bodies, and souls. The LDS concentration on the suffering in the garden allows me to see that, if it is Christianity at all, it is an immature Christianity - that to make a claim of a ‘restored’ church is shameful for Christ despised the shame of the Cross and in His disdain and His death the will of God was fulfilled.

I have let my emotions run free but I’ll not edit them out - the Church founded by Christ never - never - ‘disappeared’. The Gospel spread long after the death of the last Apostle (in fact, the last ‘gospels’ of the New Testament were not completed until decades, likely, after the death of the last Apostle). Christianity grew and flourished, theology attempted to explain the miraculous which was taken for granted and when heresies arose they were dealt with using faith, reason, and appeal to the beliefs of the Apostolic Church. Throughout the history of the Church the sins of man have not prevailed in displacing the Sacred Scriptures and Traditions as taught and passed down by the Apostles.

There is no ‘Great Apostasy’ nor did the Church of Christ, entrusted to Peter, die out. God did not lie when He told us that even the gates of Hell could not destroy His Church.

As for Smith and his claims, I do not know what to make of the man himself but I know his claims to be false. I do not believe that he was a prophet, nor seer, etc. I do believe that he was a bright man - enormously gifted - but as to whether he was a charlatan, whether he suffered from megalomania or other mental illnesses, whether he believed what he wrote and spoke of were actual revelations and/or divine prophesies, whether some revelations were for his own gain or to excuse his own sins or whether he genuinely believed they would benefit his community - those are things I do not know and only speculate upon from time to time when reading the BoM, D&C, PoGP, and other writings of, or purported to be of, Smith. He is a fascinating, and uniquely American, figure. As is the church that he founded. It is interesting to speculate the course the LDS church might have taken had Smith not died so young - I actually believe that Smith’s death was the best thing that could have happened to perpetuate Mormonism… how many more revelations until his followers found little more than self-serving excuses for excess - how many more departures from the foundation of Christ’s Church.

The Catholic Church has always taught that in man’s quest for God, there is likely to be some ‘truth’ to be found but in the LDS church I find those truths to be rather small. As Hinckley has said, he - and the LDS church - “do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.”, he is, at least being honest. But to elevate the knowledge of the nature of God, which no man can truly know, based upon an alleged vision of a 14-15 year old boy who could not even keep this story consistent in his short lifetime, to that above an Apostle of Christ seems, to the ‘traditional’ Christian something of pure lunacy, if not blasphemy.

Sorry for the rant - there are nuggets of truth in some LDS beliefs - but few errors get me as ‘riled up’ as this ridiculous notion that God’s timing was ‘off’ and the result was an 1,800 year span in which Christ’s Sacrifice had no meaning as ‘all churches’ were of the Devil and ‘abominations’.

Written hastily and not edited - pardon please any errors in grammar or spelling.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Good postings, lots of Passion. We have such a gift. Christ is the vow of all vows. He will always be with us. He is our Hope. The best way to undertand the Church that Christ established is to go to Mass for a year at least. To move with Christs birth, His daily teachings in to the Passion, His death and resurection. To really live it in your daily life. Where Christmas really is Christmas and the Easter season really becomes Easter.

God Bless

 

[Chris-WA]

This is definitely my favorite topic in discussions with Mormons, and I think the most important because this is the crux issue between our two churches.

This topic first came up for me when I took the LDS missionary discussions as a young Catholic with very little training in my own religion. But I did realize that the entire story of the Mormon Church hinged on the idea of the Great Apostacy. The missionaries seemed to present the topic more as an assumption of fact rather than an idea that needed to be explained. In my dealings with LDS over the years, I’ve found that most seem to assume the Great Apostacy happened with very little proof.

I wondered at the time if there was not a way to find out what the early church taught and believed. It was then that I decided to not just take the missionaries’ word for it, but rather research the topic myself. It is here that I first encountered the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the earliest of whom were disciples of the original twelve Apostles. What a discovery! Their writings overwhelmingly confirm that the church was thoroughly Catholic. Their belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the communion of saints, and especially the continuity of the church, among other things, confirmed for me that the church didn’t corrupt doctrines or disappear as the Mormon missionaries tried to convince me.

When you ask most Mormons about the Early Church Fathers, they haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. Most have never heard anything about them. They are not aware that there are a goldmine of writings available for them to read about the early church.

In more recent times, some LDS apologists have attempted to use the Early Church Father’s writings to prove LDS theology. But it’s always the same tactic–pick a statement here and there that seems to support Mormon beliefs, while ignoring the vast majority of their writings that support Catholic beliefs.

 

[Zakuska]

Chris-WA,

I’ve found that most seem to assume the Great Apostacy happened with very little proof.

Very little proof? ROFL

The very existance of the Papacy is proof enough for me. Burning people at the stake was their favorite pass time.

Paul tells us that all the seven churches in Asia had fallen into Apostacy and turned away from the Lord. He warns the Ephesians that when he left the same thing would happen to them. With the Apostles out of the way… the Antichrist was ripe for dominion.

When you ask most Mormons about the Early Church Fathers, they haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. Most have never heard anything about them. They are not aware that there are a goldmine of writings available for them to read about the early church.

Could it be because their writtings where locked up in the vatican Library until the late 1960’s?

 

[FCEGM]

The spread of Christianity - the very history of the Church - is proof that as the Gospel was spread, as it was preached and taught by those who followed in the lineage of the Apostles, those who heard the Word were very much “ready” for it - so much that many sacrificed their lives rather than deny the Truth of the Gospel. . . .[etc]

Thank you for this excellent post, Ben.

Galatians 4:4-5 is a good corrective for those who think God’s timing was off.

 

[Zakuska]

Who ever said that God’s timing was off?

You are forgetting that he predicted another “time of fullness”. And a Day of Judgment.

99.999% of the world population have missed those signs.

 

[dennisknapp]

Chris-WA:

This is definitely my favorite topic in discussions with Mormons, and I think the most important because this is the crux issue between our two churches.

This topic first came up for me when I took the LDS missionary discussions as a young Catholic with very little training in my own religion. But I did realize that the entire story of the Mormon Church hinged on the idea of the Great Apostacy. The missionaries seemed to present the topic more as an assumption of fact rather than an idea that needed to be explained. In my dealings with LDS over the years, I’ve found that most seem to assume the Great Apostacy happened with very little proof.

I wondered at the time if there was not a way to find out what the early church taught and believed. It was then that I decided to not just take the missionaries’ word for it, but rather research the topic myself. It is here that I first encountered the writings of the Early Church Fathers, the earliest of whom were disciples of the original twelve Apostles. What a discovery! Their writings overwhelmingly confirm that the church was thoroughly Catholic. Their belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the communion of saints, and especially the continuity of the church, among other things, confirmed for me that the church didn’t corrupt doctrines or disappear as the Mormon missionaries tried to convince me.

When you ask most Mormons about the Early Church Fathers, they haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. Most have never heard anything about them. They are not aware that there are a goldmine of writings available for them to read about the early church.

In more recent times, some LDS apologists have attempted to use the Early Church Father’s writings to prove LDS theology. But it’s always the same tactic–pick a statement here and there that seems to support Mormon beliefs, while ignoring the vast majority of their writings that support Catholic beliefs.

I second what you are saying!

If the LDS is going to make a historical claim (ie. the Great Apostasy) they need HISTORICAL evidence. If there is no evidence, we can be sure it is fiction, not history.

If it is fiction, we need not have anything to do with it.

Let’s see some evidence.

Peace

 

[Zakuska]

It is a matter of history.

2 Tim 1
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be aturned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

All seven churches in Asia had fallen away from the truth.

Acts 20
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Hmmm the entire flock was killed.

So who was left?

The false teachers.

 

[FCEGM]

Zakuska:

Who ever said that God’s timing was off?

To find out you might like to read the earlier post by Chris J and the responses to him.

 

[Zakuska]

Again…

Not so fast. It must be arguable because most Christians do believe that Christ came at the right time. The time that God determined. The world was ready. Christ gave us the Gospel and we still have it, preserved form that very time. We see an unbroken line of believers following him form that time to the present. Worshipping him at great risk to life and limb. These early Christina martyrs were still dying for the faith long after the last Apostle had departed. That would seem contraindicted if the LDS apostasy were fact.

If the earth indeed “still has the gospel”. Why does an angel from heaven have to come back with it?

Rev 14:6?

When Christ came was the second time the Heavenly banquit was set. Enoch was the first. There is a third Banquet coming.

 

[Chris-WA]

Zakuska:

The very existance of the Papacy is proof enough for me. Burning people at the stake was their favorite pass time.

Zakuska, if you want people on these threads to take you seriously, this kind of rhetoric needs to stop. When you say things like this, the rest of your post loses much credibility. However, if you wish to make the Mormon position appear rediculous, keep it up.

 

[Chris-WA]

Zakuska:

Paul tells us that all the seven churches in Asia had fallen into Apostacy and turned away from the Lord. He warns the Ephesians that when he left the same thing would happen to them. With the Apostles out of the way… the Antichrist was ripe for dominion.

It appears that you believe the antichrist has already come. Who in your opinion was he, or it?

 

[dennisknapp]

Chris-WA:

Zakuska, if you want people on these threads to take you seriously, this kind of rhetoric needs to stop. When you say things like this, the rest of your post loses much credibility. However, if you wish to make the Mormon position appear rediculous, keep it up.

Amen!

Peace