The Great Divorce: The Evil Fruits of Henry VIII’s Adultery

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Novocastrian said:
Amen! The anti-Catholicism of Wolf Hall was just embarrassing, and such a shame given how well it captured the terrifying volatility of Henry’s personal power.
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Yes, it was fantastic. I am actually going through withdrawal. Just watched episode 6 - it’s over. I so wanted to see Cromwell’s fall from grace, end up on the chopping block. Can you imagine? The acting is stellar, no doubt.
 
UnumCorpus said:
Interesting. I’ve read much of Lewis’ books and writings, and he seldom mentioned Catholicism at all. It seems that he tried to remain ecumenical in his writings so that he could reach as wide an audience as possible, so the existence of the letter you alluded to is interesting.

I am not sure what the content of Tolkien’s comments are, but just because one does not accept all the tenets of Catholicism does not necessarily make them anti-Catholic. At the very least, Lewis was not outspoken about the anti-Catholic views he may have had outside of his private letters (at least, not that I know of). I know he had some views that came surprisingly close to Catholic teaching, particularly on the subject of purgatory.

So especially compared to some other Protestant (particularly Calvinist) writers, I certainly would not classify Lewis as “anti-Catholic” as Check does in this article. It would have been nice if Check had expanded upon his choice of adjective. It seems the topic of Lewis’ potential anti-Catholicism is more nuanced than what the article presents.
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Tolkien felt that Lewis, subconsciously, retained a typical Ulster protestant attitude toward the RCC (the “Ulsterior Motive”), while consciously moving toward the more Anglo-Catholic expression of the Church of England. He expressed this in a couple of places, particularly in an unpublished essay, titled as above, which originated as a critique of LETTERS TO MALCOM, and which is discussed in Carpenter’s THE INKLINGS, pp.50-52, The point was part of the gradual estrangement between the two, in Lewis’ later life. The point is also discussed in Pearce’s C.S.LEWIS AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Don’t forget William Blake. And are we SURE Shakespeare was a Catholic?

I just watched Wolf Hall - :eek: - now that is anti-Catholic. Great miniseries though all the same - Cromwell was a snake for the record. What a number that show did on Thomas More (and Anne Boleyn). Cromwell ordered the executions of Catholic clergy and shut down the monasteries and took their wealth for the Crown. He was not some winsome little introvert with a chip on his shoulder. (Though I believe More probably likewise oversaw some pretty nasty Protestant executions.)

I personally have never been convinced that the best answer to eyes rolled in the head foam at the mouth anti-Catholicism is to out eyes rolled in the head foam at the mouth anti-Protestant them. It is unseemly, unChristian and everything gets to the point where you can’t tell the pot from the kettle, pretty fast too, I might add. I wish I could just say it’s the converts who do it, but no, the “natives” in the Church can be just as bad. It is simply not motivated by love, charity or truth far too often (though this is of course ALWAYS the purpose as stated for the record). 😦 Stains the faith. And, no I am not defending Henry VIII. I think he was a monster.
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I think Hank was a fascinating train wreck.

Some day, I’ll read WOLF HALL and BRING UP THE BODIES. both over there somewhere, in the stacks.
 
GKC said:
I think Hank was a fascinating train wreck.

Some day, I’ll read WOLF HALL and BRING UP THE BODIES. both over there somewhere, in the stacks.
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Have you by any chance read possibly the latest biography of HVIII, by John Guy, hardly more than an essay really, in the Penguin Monarchs series (Allen Lane, 2014) ?
 
GKC said:
I have them on different bookcases. Shakespeare that is; nothing on Dryden.
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👍 Ha ha. Love it.

No, I don’t know that much about Dryden either - I did read some of him in a survey class as I recall. I opted to do all my Renaissance credits on straight Shakespeare so I have only a nodding acquaintance with the rest of that period (Dryden is Renaissance, right? ;)). Had to read Ben Jonson years later just to know who he was - ditto Marlowe. Can’t say I have ever regretted it - definitely the right choice.
 
Picky_Picky said:
Have you by any chance read possibly the latest biography of HVIII, by John Guy, hardly more than an essay really, in the Penguin Monarchs series (Allen Lane, 2014) ?
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I got a few of Guy’s. I like him. I dunno if I have that title or not.

Lots of books are like that.
 
GKC said:
I got a few of Guy’s. I like him. I dunno if I have that title or not.

Lots of books are like that.
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Look, are you telling me you have no catalogue? Surely you could employ an itinerant retired Englishman to create one?
 
GKC said:
I think Hank was a fascinating train wreck.

Some day, I’ll read WOLF HALL and BRING UP THE BODIES. both over there somewhere, in the stacks.
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Agreed on Hank. The production Wolf Hall actually managed to give him short shrift as well. Very simplistic stuff in terms of characterization. Henry remained a devout Catholic in many ways. He hated Luther; he just wanted a divorce or two. 🙂 I would not trust the book Wolf Hall. I may try and find some good stuff on Cromwell though - everybody has their own angle. I find it’s helpful to read two or three quality historians who differ - make up your own mind what happened there - Cromwell - Henry - Anne Boleyn.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
👍 Ha ha. Love it.

No, I don’t know that much about Dryden either - I did read some of him in a survey class as I recall. I opted to do all my Renaissance credits on straight Shakespeare so I have only a nodding acquaintance with the rest of that period (Dryden is Renaissance, right? ;)). Had to read Ben Jonson years later just to know who he was - ditto Marlowe. Can’t say I have ever regretted it - definitely the right choice.
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I have more fun with Chesterton. And have almost everything he wrote, a short ton of bios and commentaries on the side . Been a 50 year journey.

As with others of that ilk.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Agreed on Hank. The production Wolf Hall actually managed to give him short shrift as well. Very simplistic stuff in terms of characterization. Henry remained a devout Catholic in many ways. He hated Luther; he just wanted a divorce or two. 🙂 I would not trust the book Wolf Hall. I may try and find some good stuff on Cromwell though - everybody has their own angle. I find it’s helpful to read two or three quality historians who differ - make up your own mind what happened there - Cromwell - Henry - Anne Boleyn.
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Not divorce. Decree of nullity.

I think it essential to read, on anything that I take a serious interest in, from as many angles and perspectives as may be found.

Hence the appearance of the house.
 
GKC said:
I have more fun with Chesterton. And have almost everything he wrote, a short ton of bios and commentaries on the side . Been a 50 year journey.

As with others of that ilk.
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I try so hard to read Chesterton. I cannot get through Orthodoxy to save my life. I have tried for YEARS, since like '98. No joke. He is too relentlessly optimistic or whimsical or something. I don’t know where I stumble with him. It’s unfortunate.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
I try so hard to read Chesterton. I cannot get through Orthodoxy to save my life. I have tried for YEARS, since like '98. No joke. He is too relentlessly optimistic or whimsical or something. I don’t know where I stumble with him. It’s unfortunate.
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Ah well.

I can’t abide fried chicken.

ORTHODOXY was, as he said, a sort of slovenly autobiography, written at the point at which he had decided to move over to Rome. Took him 14 years.

Me, I can’t read Dryden.
 
Dang, I expected to come back to this thread and do a body count.
You guys are mellowing with age.
😃
 
Picky_Picky said:
Look, are you telling me you have no catalogue? Surely you could employ an itinerant retired Englishman to create one?
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I have no catalog.

I once had a DOS based data manager, with 7 sort-able fields, to allow me to search and locate the books not on the shelves and easily discernible. The cataloged titles entered there were stored in roughly150 numbered boxes. I primarily used the search function to locate science fiction books, to take to conventions to be signed.

That system probably covered around 5000 titles. But it all fell apart, Now it’s a case of seek and find, or not. I likely will never bring any order to it, though I’ve been slowly going through the 2 rented storage areas, and sorting and re-boxing the books there, even identifying some duplicates, or others, to be disposed of. This will take a long time.

Meanwhile, I can’t find any Guy. And I know I have 2.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Not to mention, for religious poetry, George Herbert, William Cowper and John Donne (who ended up Anglican IIRC).
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I love John Donne. Also and I am wandering a bit here - but for a good cause - Jonathan Swift, Henry Fielding and Laurence Sterne (all Anglican I believe and truly great, great Christian men in my eyes (…and heart))

Gerald Manley Hopkins, James Joyce (switching countries here), some other favorites. Also Middlemarch is a great world class novel; I don’t know that anyone reads it anymore. But I am way too off track now for sure. Thomas Hardy. Daniel Defoe.

England is not the first nation I would pick on as being unChristian - historically anyway. I once had a French literature professor asked me why I liked English literature - “It is just so moral” he sighed.

But these days I agree the English are LOST. :hypno: But then so are we…:dts:
 
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