The Great Falling Away = Protestant Reformation?

[TPJCatholic]

USMC,

I will add that I think the moral decay we see might have been slowed if Vatican II took a stronger stance, yet it would still have happened because western people wanted it that way. I am of a firm belief that the Church has ignored warnings from Our Lady and that has lead to untold horrors and degredation over the last 80 years. Had the Church listened to Mary, we would not be in the mess we are in–imo.

However, no matter what one thinks about this, I do think we are on the brink of one of two likely paths:

1. The last 40 years of wandering the desert of liberalism and corruption is coming to an end…leading us to the springtime that JPII predicted…

or

1. We are going to get smacked bad in the form of a chastisement for all of the sins and corruption.

 

[USMC]

TPJCatholic:

USMC,

I will add that I think the moral decay we see might have been slowed if Vatican II took a stronger stance, yet it would still have happened because western people wanted it that way. I am of a firm belief that the Church has ignored warnings from Our Lady and that has lead to untold horrors and degredation over the last 80 years. Had the Church listened to Mary, we would not be in the mess we are in–imo.

However, no matter what one thinks about this, I do think we are on the brink of one of two likely paths:

1. The last 40 years of wandering the desert of liberalism and corruption is coming to an end…leading us to the springtime that JPII predicted…

or

1. We are going to get smacked bad in the form of a chastisement for all of the sins and corruption.

I agree. And since we have been told that “many nations will be anihilated”, I think it will probably be #2 first, then #1, because we have also been told that "in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph.

Anne Catherine Emmerick had a lot to say about our day. Many of her prophecies describe the infiltration, chaos, and “protestatization of the Catholic Church” of our day, to a T. She also had a lot to say about the good times just ahead. She described it as something “seemingly impossible”. There is a complete transformation virtually at once. Those prophecies really give a lot of hope.

If you don’t have it already, you ought to purchase the two books containing those prophecies (Vol 1 & 2). I forget the exact name of them, but they are white books with her picture on the cover. They are worth the money.

Regarding the “springtime” John Paul II spoke of. I agree that we may be in a springtime. What happens when a desert begins to bloom? Small flowers pop up here and there. Isn’t that what is happening today? There are small churches “here and there” that offer the Traditional Latin Mass and preach the traditional Catholic faith. There is usually only one or so in each diocese, but the buds are in bloom.

It is true that these “blossoms” of the new springtime are often cursed by the darkness; but the true faith is strong at these parishes and will only continue to strengthen and spread.

So, maybe we are in a “new springtime”: thanks to the Traditionalists!

"indeed, said Pope St. Pius X, “the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries, nor innovators: they are traditionalists (Notre charge Apostolique - Our apostolic mandate)”.

 

[TPJCatholic]

USMC,

The question is whether or not we will still get smacked.

 

[USMC]

TPJCatholic:

USMC,

The question is whether or not we will still get smacked.

When I wrote: "And since we have been told that “many nations will be anihilated”, I think it will probably be #2 first, then #1, because we have also been told that “in the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph”, I meant that I thought we will probably “get smacked” first; then the good days will arrive.

Think of all the prophecies of the 3 days of darkness by great saints, such as Padre Pio. Also, think it Akita - an approved apparition - which spoke of fire falling from heaven (I think that was Akita).

My personal belief is that we are in the middle of the “great chastisement” now, but that it is just the beginning. At this point it is a “spiritual” chastisement. The physical part will probably be following very soon.

I will try to locate a quote for you, and post it here later. It is from the writings of Ven. Mary of Agreda’s book “Mystical City of God” (a must read - and available online). She describes the event that will bring about the “glorious transformation”. She is obviously speaking of the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart, but at the time (the 1600’s) she is not exactly sure what it is.
I personally have found that quote very interesting, when considering what Mary said at Fatime, but have never seen it quoted by anyone.

I will look through the book (actually I will need to search through 4 volumes), to try to locate the quote. If I can find it, I’ll post it for you.

 

[USMC]

BTW, here is a link to the prophecies of Akita: olrl.org/prophecy/akita.shtml

 

[TPJCatholic]

USMC,

I fear that you might be correct.

 

[USMC]

TPJCatholic:

USMC,

I fear that you might be correct.

I fear it as well.

 

[TPJCatholic]

USMC,

There are plenty of reasons to have concern over the future. I do wonder what the last 80 years would have been like if the Popes had not ignored Mary’s requests to consecrate Russia…it is a very deep wonder to me.

 

[Maranatha]

Seeking33:

I’m a REALLY new Catholic. I was just confirmed yesterday. So I’m not familiar with what I think you’re referring to …Vatican II? I don’t see how this could be part of the falling away since Christ promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church.

Welcome Home!
:clapping:

 

[Maranatha]

I do not think the Reformation was the beginning of the great falling away. I’m much more concerned with the rise of secularism - our greatest current challenge. Our separated brethren believe almost everything we believe and are our allies against the degrading moral standards.

 

[USMC]

USMC:

TPJCatholic,

I will try to locate a quote for you, and post it here later. It is from the writings of Ven. Mary of Agreda’s book “Mystical City of God” (a must read - and available online). She describes the event that will bring about the “glorious transformation”. She is obviously speaking of the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart, but at the time (the 1600’s) she is not exactly sure what it is.
I personally have found that quote very interesting, when considering what Mary said at Fatime, but have never seen it quoted by anyone.

I will look through the book (actually I will need to search through 4 volumes), to try to locate the quote. If I can find it, I’ll post it for you.

I located the quote I was referring to.

“I have been informed of a great mystery, which affords us consolation in this conflict of the Holy Church against her wicked enemies. Namely, on account of this triumph [just spoken of] of most holy Mary, and on account of another, which She gained over the demons after the Ascension of our Lord, the Almighty, in reward of her battles, decreed, that through her intercession and virtue all the heresies and sects of the worlds against the Holy Church were to be destroyed and extinguished. The time apported for this blessing was not made known to me; probably, the fullfillment of this decree is dependent upon some tacit and unknown condition.” Mystical City of God, Vol. 2, pg 290).

We now know what the “tacit and inknown condition” is. It is the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, as requested at Fatima.

When this happens, we will see the “seemingly impossible” transformation of the world, as predicted by many mystics, included Blessed Ann Catherine Emmerick.

 

[demy]

jesusluv:

From the moment I was convinced Catholicism was the fullness of Christianity, I’ve thought the Protestant Reformation started the great falling away. There are thousands of splits every year within protestantism that further brings people away from the faith. Most splits are the result of part of a congregation NOT believing something the current denomination teaches, therefore dropping even more beliefs everytime a split happens.

I think the reformation has allowed secularism come into the Catholic faith(of course Catholics themselves did plenty of this ), and Catholics today look at protestants and think “man, they don’t have as many rules and I think the Pope said something about them being seperated brethren so they are still just as Christian as me” then they get lax and start laying off teachings of the church.

i also share the same opinion with you jesusluv.i strongly believe that the beging of problems in the spiritual realms and our physical world was simply the splitting that occured 600yrs ago.had the catholic church remained the sole world of christianity, probably God wouldn’t have heard anyone responsible for anything happening in the world.it going to be the heirarchy and God doing the stuff.but now protestants have come ,they’ve opened our eyes to all things and i believe they 've made this world this decay.

 

[demy]

if the church had been the voice of all and the all in all,this world wouldn’t have been this perverse because the breakaway brought about the greatest instrument of the evil one science running at a neck breaking speed.and sinc there was no controlling agent it grew out of hand and the cumulative result is the decay we have today.if care is not taken thing are still going to get worsein our world and i believe thats simply the bend of the end time parousia

 

[TPJCatholic]

USMC,

I do wonder if the Church will ever properly consecrate Russia. I also wonder what form the world peace will take and will all people see the Church as the one true faith…

 

[USMC]

TPJCatholic:

USMC,

I do wonder if the Church will ever properly consecrate Russia. I also wonder what form the world peace will take and will all people see the Church as the one true faith…

Believe it or not there is actually a rumor coming out of Rome that the Pope will do it TODAY. Probably won’t happen, but even the rumor give me a little hope.

I started to write you a responce about what happened under the pontificate of Pius XII. Although he did not consecrate Russian as requested, He did do 2 things: Firstly, like John Paul II, he consecrated the world to the Immaculate Heart; and 2) at another time he did consecrate Russia by name to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, but not with the other Bishops as was requested. Also, the Bishops of Portugal consecrated their country to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

These two events brough an abondance of grace. The stories of what took place are pretty spectacular. Have you ever read them?

The book title “The Whole Truth About Fatima” (Vol 3, I think) written by Frere Michel de la Sainte Trinite, details what took place as a result of these consecrations. The fruits were incredible. I think that was a slight foreshaddowing of what we can expect, but I think the fruits of the actual and complete consecration will be something completely beyond belief - completely superantural and spectacular. That is what has been predicted anyway.

Try to find a story about what happened in Portugal when the Bishops consecrated their country ot the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I bet you can find a story on line by doing a search.

If you find one, report back and give some details.

 

[TPJCatholic]

USMC,

When it comes to consecrating Russia, you and I will likely strongly agree.

 

[Totus_Tuus]

TPJCatholic:

I personally think it has more to do with current horrors found within the Catholic faith, like:

70% of all Catholics surveyed do not believe in the Real Presence.

Only 25% go to Mass regularly.

Only 5-10% of Catholics go to regular confession.

Something like 30% of people raised Catholic receive Confirmation.

Divorce rate among Catholics is high.

Abortion among Catholics is high.

Birth control is high among catholics.

Few catholic families encourage vocations.

Few Catholic families have more then 3 kids.

These facts are even worse in Europe, yet are much better in developing countries. Yet, overall the picture is one of a Church with Catholics who simply no longer practice the faith as they should…by the millions. That is a great pulling away.
I do not think anti-Christ is here–yet.

I agree with TPJ on this. People have been falling away from the Church from the beginning. Heresies have followed one after another right up to the present day. The Protestant ‘Reformation’ was just another time in history where lots of people decided to go against the bad practices in the Church and therefore jump ship entirely instead of combatting the evil directly. IMO the hierarchy of the Church hasn’t lived up to its call and now there’s hell to pay, literally, for millions or billions of souls who, especially since Vatican II have just sort of shrugged and have become luke-warm, and to quote a Society priest I once heard “…If you are luke-warm He will vomit you out of His mouth…”

Anyway, I’ve always imagined that the great apostasy will coincide with the advent of a truly great pope, humble yet ferocious where his flock is concerned, not like JPII, so-called ‘Great’ by confused Catholics. Rather, renewal in the Chruch may come from one who isn’t afraid to point out error where there’s error, who will teach what the Church has always taught (minus much of the last 40 years) and at which point, teachings being true and unambiguous, many of the world’s ‘catholics’ will realize that they haven’t even been doing any of it anyway, so why bother…

We all know catholics like that who will make a cameo appearance once or twice a year at Mass. What’ll happen to them when Rome gets serious and people start having the truth taught to them again, or even just searching it out on their own because they’re interested and it matters to them? What’ll happen when people realize that missing Mass is a grave sin? A few will go “Oh my gosh!” and do something about it but I fear that the majority will just say “Yay, now we don’t even have to spend Christmas and Easter in a church crowded with people like me who are just barely makin’ it to Mass for the first time in six months”…

Then again, what’ll be left of the Church? It’ll be much more of a solid rock of believers again where the high point of their Sunday is receiving the Blessed Sacrament rather than the coffee and donuts before/after Mass and their beliefs dictate their actions and they live accordingly monday through saturday too, rather than just sundays. That would be awesome.

 

[hurdlr23]

DaMaMaXiMuS:

Very interesting thought posed by Seeking33.

I’ve never really thought of it in that way either. I guess most people wouldn’t since the church views protestants as separated brethren. A couple of weeks ago I started a thread asking the question whether it’s correct to say that protestants are christians also. My thinking was if we know Christ thought one doctrine, his New Covenant, and there is only one way to follow Christ as the scriptures and tradition says, and we know the Catholic Church is the the true church of Christ. Then how could it be correct to say that protestants are also christians when we know they’ve deviate from the teaching of Christ.

It was pointed out to me that the official Church position is that their seperated brethren and I was even quoted a cathechism to support this. I mean I’ll accept it because it’s what the Church says.

But now this question posted on this thread really makes me think. It really fits in my opinion that the great falling away began with the reformation. And I can see how that falling away is still seducing many from the Catholic Church by the statistic pointed out earlier by a previous poster.

I think this is one of those things that would be good to keep stored in our minds cuz you never know.

Nelson

Who says that the church was not to have several branches? Although the church was built on the rock (Peter), Jesus never said this church only had a single chapel? In many cases, the protestant churches do not change any of the church practices and beliefs, such as in the Anglican church, but only some of the minor details, as in allowing priests to marry, which was allowed in the early Catholic church. Although many do not follow the same path as Catholics, there are other ways to receive grace through his word than through the Catholic church alone.

God’s blessings upon all,
a Catholic

 

[uther]

DaMaMaXiMuS:

Also what does someone like myself do?

My suggestion would be, if you haven’t already, make your way through the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Perhaps skim over it first to get the layout (it is well layed out) and then plough through it at whatever pace you can. It is a long book. You will notice many references to various documents of Vatican II in the body of the text as well as in the footnotes.

You will also notice that the CCC is a great, if not exhaustive overview of what the Church believes, the progression of those beliefs and the internal rational cohesion of those beliefs. That is the point at issue, is it not, particularly for a new Catholic?

Then read the documents of Vatican II. I found that I had to read them several times. The ambiguity that people notice is usually the result of the first cursory reading. But you will already have the benefit of the “interpretation” of Vatican II that the Church herself has made in the Catechism, as well as the synthesis of all the former councils and teachings right from Jesus Christ Himself to Vatican II.

You will also notice, as time goes on, that the key points that the dissenters on the liberal side have attached themselves to, have a distinct character, in that they tend to appear oriented to moral ambiguity, directly or indirectly, and are used for the purpose of promoting moral laxity predominantly in the area of sexuality. In other words, there is a motivation that is not theological per se. For example, many questions that arise over papal infallibility tend to be raised because they are necessary to question sexual moral teaching such as Humanae Vitae. Otherwise, most wouldn’t care.

Whether or not the foxes were in the hen-house at the time of Vatican II, the council has perhaps had the positive effect of flushing into the open the dissent at all levels of the Church, and gave a certain urgency to the pontificate of John Paul the Great, in which he magnificently and voluminously taught on all the issues that were raised. Benedict XVI will consolidate the orthodoxy of the past 25 years of teaching from the chair of St. Peter, I have no doubt.

So, as a new Catholic, I would say this. Study all of this if you wish. But proceed with faith in Jesus Christ and confidence in the Church. Whatever is said from either end of the spectrum, the Church has not wavered, and our Holy Father is competent at the helm.

 

[uther]

Back to the original topic of the thread.

In retrospect, in order to see something like the Reformation, or the last 500 years as fitting the prophecy of St. Paul, really the only way to discern is to look at the fruits and the doctrine. Where has it taken us, and where is it headed? How would we define apostacy?

Coming from a Protestant Evangelical background I would have to honestly say, as a Catholic, that among the Reformers there has been a great love of our Lord Jesus Christ, and a great faith in His saving power through the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. Is that apostacy? In and of itself I don’t think so.

However, inside the movement there has always been the seed of rebellion and disobedience. That is indeed how it started and is integral to it. And that is that recurring spirit that produces the exponential mulitplication of denominations that we Catholics like to point out. The Protestant side of the fence has always been wont to elevate the “protest” to the level of virtue and wrap that in the entire concept of freedom. In America, that ideology has been enshrined constitutionally and promoted to the virtual exclusion of everything else. So essentially Protestant “protest” theology and socio/political ideology have been the core of American culture from day one. The recent great clash of National Socialism and Soviet Socialism with the liberty culture in America in our time has brought these ideologies to the centre of debate.

That is the background to what we are talking about here.

As Catholics we understand that our salvation follows from that act of capitulation when we recognize and confess our sins, and throw ourselves on the mercy of God through faith in Jesus Christ, not just one time, but for as long as we are sinners, which is the rest of our lives. We cannot forget our position before God when we return to confession and express the Kyrie. Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy. We ask for and depend upon the working of the Holy Spirit within us to cause the works of Christ in our lives, and turn to God in repentance when we fail. Obedience is an essential ingredient of our faith and our Church.

From that perspective it is a long way to the Freedom culture that has produced license in our age. In a sense then, to the extent that we Catholics are falling away, embroiled in dissension from Church teaching and a modern license mentality, we might legitimately say that we owe that in part to the Protestant Reformation. Of course, that doesn’t lessen our own responsibility as individuals. Nor does it negate some of the lessons we can legitimately take from the practices, methods and dedication that some of our Protestant brethren show us in their zeal for the salvation of the lost.

How far will this rebellious social/moral license take us? We’re definitely not through with it yet. In the end, it might amount to the great apostacy, unless we were to see a great renewal. Time will tell, if we’re still around. If we’re gone, we’ll have the opportunity to talk to St. Paul himself.