The Great Moral Europe

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whichwaytogo47

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Abortion and euthanasia are alive and well. Though most of the time both are voluntary (which is still morally wrong), some are involuntary (aka could have been misinterpreted, could have been self-righteousness or I know better than you.

So I love when people say Europe is such a moral place because of not having the death penalty, but wasn’t a nun executed in 1984 because she had a terminal illness, in the Netherlands, but doctor’s felt her life wasn’t worth living and that she was “brainwashed” by being a nun that they knew better than her.
 
Boy, this death penalty thing really has a lot of conservatives hopping in their boots. How many threads do we have on this already? Four, five?
 
AndrewAxland said:
Boy, this death penalty thing really has a lot of conservatives hopping in their boots. How many threads do we have on this already? Four, five?
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So you completely ignored the euthanasia part? Except in Ireland, abortion in Europe at least is limited to the first trimester whereas in the USA and in Ireland, it is allowable up to delivery of the infant.

Shouldn’t the dignity of the human person prevail? I’m bothered by the immorality in Europe (i.e. death panels, human rights courts, etc), not by a country’s opposition or support to the death penalty. The sanctity of the individual is not respected. The rights of the collective not individual human liberty matters more.
 
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AndrewAxland said:
Of course I disregarded your strawman. It has nothing to do with the Pope’s statement on the death penalty, which is what you came here to gripe about.
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Not true, just amazed at the hypocrisy of Europe that is holier than thou because of it’s social welfare programs. Oh yeah, I have a problem with Pope Francis’s support of that. So glad my relatives left and went to Canada and then to the USA. They came to Canada in the late 1700s, early 1880s.
 
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Boring Europe blaming won’t solve your problems, as it won’t solve mine as european.
 
Tell this another person than me, I’m Iranian in a Russian parish.
 
Nope, lashing out at Europe because of an archived podcast of Christ is the Answer on EWTN on euthanasia not the pope. The pope just happens to be a byproduct of his support with Europe. I believe that social justice and capitalism can co-occur and capitalism allows for more (not less) of social justice to be available.
alice24 said:
Tell this another person than me, I’m Iranian in a Russian parish.
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Very cool. I think you’re an awesome person and a nice person. I just don’t like who’s running the government, but the people are fine.
 
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whichwaytogo47 said:
So I love when people say Europe is such a moral place because of not having the death penalty,
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@whichwaytogo47 , who says that Europe is such a moral place , or The Great Moral Europe as you call it in your title ?

I have lived in Europe for 72 years , and I have no illusions about the morals of Europe , or , more correctly , about the morals of the people who live in Europe .

The people who live in Europe are no better and no worse than the inhabitants of other continents .

It would be simple nonsense to claim otherwise by proposing some baseless generality .
 
Rob2 said:
The people who live in Europe are no better and no worse than the inhabitants of other continents .

It would be simple nonsense to claim otherwise by proposing some baseless generality .
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Agreed. I just don’t like who runs Europe or who they keep putting in office. I’m a little scared that the USA is becoming more like Europe. Morals should be based on the individual not society (aka principles not solely on what benefits the most people).
 
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America was founded on the purpose of individual liberty and had something special. I think we can learn from each other and fix our imperfections. The USA could reduce it’s number of abortions and reduce the number of people on death row. Not the biggest fan of medical decisions being based on life span or quality of life.
Rob2 said:
I have lived in Europe for 72 years , and I have no illusions about the morals of Europe , or , more correctly , about the morals of the people who live in Europe .
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That’s very true.
 
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whichwaytogo47 said:
America was founded on the purpose of individual liberty and had something special.
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And you are somehow blaming the Europeans for the fact that we now have a leader that boasts of chasing random women around and grabbing them by their birth canals? That’s rich!
 
whichwaytogo47 said:
Agreed. I just don’t like who runs Europe or who they keep putting in office. I’m a little scared that the USA is becoming more like Europe.
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More like Europe ? It is a continent made up of 50 countries .

God forbid that my country should become more like the USA . I would emigrate to the back of beyond .
 
AndrewAxland said:
And you are somehow blaming the Europeans for the fact that we now have a leader that boasts of chasing random women around and grabbing them by their birth canals? That’s rich!
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We do have freedom of speech here, regardless of how incorrect or perposterous that speech is.
 
The problem you seem to be having is not with Europe, but with people in the US who have for years been holding Europe up as some sort of standard for us to emulate.

They do the same thing with the Church.

In each case, they point out where the entity agrees with what they want and tell us we should go there.

But they totally ignore the other aspects, or rather, they hope we will ignore those other aspects.

The Church teaches we should help the poor, they tell us, so we should vote for the Democrat, who wants to help the poor. They want us to ignore that that same Democrat wants nuns to pay for ABC, which is against the teaching of the same Church they want us to obey when it comes to the poor.

Europe has no DP: we should do the same! While totally ignoring that in parts of Europe, euthanasia is not always completely voluntary.

The Europeans do their own thing, but do not blame them for what Americans do.
 
Annie said:
The Church teaches we should help the poor, they tell us, so we should vote for the Democrat, who wants to help the poor. They want us to ignore that that same Democrat wants nuns to pay for ABC, which is against the teaching of the same Church they want us to obey when it comes to the poor.
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Very well said. But I feel it should be voluntary as God loves a cheerful giver. I don’t think having value-added taxes on the goods we buy so that money can be given to the poor is not the same thing as someone giving out of their goodwill to make sure those who are in need of help receive it.
Annie said:
Europe has no DP: we should do the same! While totally ignoring that in parts of Europe, euthanasia is not always completely voluntary.

The Europeans do their own thing, but do not blame them for what Americans do.
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That’s fair. I really like your post. I think we could eliminate the death penalty or reduce it to either the most serious crimes (or have solitary confinement if the level of crime or one is able to commit crimes from inside prison). I would like us to not have assisted suicide here in many states and I wish socialized medicine in Europe was voluntary rather than a compulsory. I wish both in the USA and Europe, we had options. Sometimes we wouldn’t make the right decision (i.e. going private could be a mistake if they deny your claim as could be relying on the government if you’re let down without any recourse) but I wish everyone had the choice. I wish people had recourse if they were treated unfairly if being treated unfairly meant that the collective saved money or that the collective benefited at the expense of the individual.
 
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Personally, I think we need to overhaul the system altogether. There are a lot of problems there.

I don’t think that piling on punishment is a good idea, but swift sure consistent punishment at lower levels–earlier on in a criminal career–would help.

It is true that some are simply incredibly damaged, but solitary confinement, especially for life, will just damage them further and is unnecessary for defense of others
 
Annie said:
Personally, I think we need to overhaul the system altogether. There are a lot of problems there.

I don’t think that piling on punishment is a good idea, but swift sure consistent punishment at lower levels–earlier on in a criminal career–would help.

It is true that some are simply incredibly damaged, but solitary confinement, especially for life, will just damage them further and is unnecessary for defense of others
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I think there’s a lot of agreement with what you said. I disagree only slightly with your last point. I think only if someone can be proven to be a danger to others from inside prison should solitary confinement be used as a deterrent for communication (referring only to someone who can conspire to commit murder from inside prison). But overhaul that protects everyone’s liberty in both the USA and Europe would be really awesome. I wish we could learn from each other (even thru griping and complaining) and eventually come up with solutions that increase (rather than decrease) individual liberties as well as the collective as a whole.

In the USA, we really need to figure out a way to profitably deal with people with preexisting conditions and provide better access to healthcare for the uninsured (and not just to stabilize someone). In Europe, it would be great if they could find a way for people to be able to better access private insurance and/or a government system that takes care of its elderly as the person paid in for an entire lifetime into a socialized system. Of course, I might be thinking of the UK and some anecdotal cases and this may not apply to the UK as a whole nevermind Europe.
 
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