The Great Schism

[Annatar]

Milliardo
on a side note…
“If a person truly wants to live, he can make any place he wants a heaven.–Yui Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion”

Your quote, sounds alot like it was from Milton’s “Paradise Lost”

“Infernal world! and thou, profoundest Hell,
Receive thy new possessor–one who brings
A mind not to be changed by place or time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
What matter where, if I be still the same”

Someone in a different thread asked what was the Devil’s primary sin, they would do worse than to read the poem. Pride!

“What though the field be lost?
All is not lost–the unconquerable will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to submit or yield:
And what is else not to be overcome?
That glory never shall his wrath or might
Extort from me. To bow and sue for grace
With suppliant knee, and deify his power…”

 

[Annatar]

On the issue of Schism Healing…

What has reality got to do with anything, when a prayer wings its way to God’s ears!!?!?

If we all had at least a tincture of faith… the rift between the RCC and the OC/EC would be a mountain that would be easily moved.
A triffling thing.

Tiny baby steps in healing the rift have taken place in the past few years. Dialogue… Appologies for past wrongs…

Lack of hope is the Devil’s playground - believe me, I know.

Beannacht De!

 

[Annatar]

I agree with many posters here that unification seems highly unlikely…

… and I’d just like to mention how sad it is that if the Patriarch of Istanbul (sorry Constantinople) showed up in the US he’d have a hard time filling up a broom closet let alone Yankee Stadium… so sad that their pride prevents them from coming home and actually being a force for good in the world and not just a virtually silent historical footnote.

Praying for them.

Pride is an equal opportunities employer.
Personnally I never can get all the planks outa my own eye. Doesnt stop me pointing out the splinters in other peoples… But I try.
With God’s Help!

 

[Milliardo]

Milliardo
on a side note…
“If a person truly wants to live, he can make any place he wants a heaven.–Yui Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion”

Your quote, sounds alot like it was from Milton’s “Paradise Lost”

Might be; I am not sure what Hideaki Anno’s inspiration for that line is in the anime, Neon Genesis Evangelion. But we’re OT, hehe!

 

[Milliardo]

Most certainly… without an instrument of unity (papal primacy) the Orthodox faith has crumbled into little more than like-minded autocephalous Churches.

Which, for the Orthodox, are united under one Orthodox Faith.One would certainly say the same thing for the Catholic Church, that because it has strayed much from Apostolic Tradition, then it has also lost an instrument for unity. But we should not go into that road of who is better than who; if we are to seek unity, then we should look for what binds us, or will bind us, not what will further disunite us.

“As the “convocation” of all men for salvation, the Church in her very nature is missionary, sent by Christ to all the nations to make disciples of them.”… it’s not about “seeking media attention” it’s about the salvation of souls… and in this regard I can’t imagine anyone could say that they have not failed at this… to the detriment of us all.

Ah, then should the salvation of souls be determined by the number of people one would have in a gathering? It does not, and ironically Catholics are fond of saying that when Evangelicals come and proclaim the number of people they took away from the Catholic Church, the number of people that attend their services vis-a-vis those who attend Mass, etc. No, as I have mentioned, the Orthodox Patriarchs have their own way of gathering souls to Christ, and the bishop of Rome has his own way. Let that be as it is; we should be one Church under Christ. We should work together. The only way unity can happen is if both sides back down from who is better than who. I will not go down that road, since there is nothing to be gained there. I would rather focus on what we have in common: The Trinity, the Ecumenical Councils, the Church Fathers, the early Church. Those are the things that in one way or the other we agree on. That is where Orthodox and Catholics should start. If we go down the road of “We get more people than you do” or “The Pope has more people going to see him than the Patriarchs”, then we have achieved nothing other than seeing who is better than who. In the end, both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches lose, and the unity we seek for so long will only remain a dream.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Also, with the patriarchs it will be the issue ( what we (the non-clergy) would consider a mundane issue ) of priestly garments and beards.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Also, with the patriarchs it will be the issue ( what we (the non-clergy) would consider a mundane issue ) of priestly garments and beards.

I will second that. Who will compromise what on the issue of beards and priestly garb?

There are only two possible scenarios in a compromise on this issue.

1. RCC priests adopt the Judaic beard.
   EO priests adopt the RCC priestly garments.
2. RCC priests adopt the EO priestly garments
   EO drop the beards.

It is much more than doctrines and dogmas. It is also traditions and disciplines.

 

[Mickey]

We pray that it will be so. However, working that out will be the thing to do. I do not think the role the Pope has in the Catholic Church would sit well with any of the Orthodox Patriarchs. If reunification will be achieved, I would think the first thing that would be done would be to bring the role of the bishop of Rome back as to how it was in the early Church, which would greatly limit it to its jurisdiction. I do not know if this would be favoured in Rome, though that is how I see reunification would be achieved. I highly doubt any of the Patriarchs would agree to the universal jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome.

clmowry:

IF this is what is will take. Then no, it will never happen.

You never know.

Certainly, no one who claims allegiance to Catholic theology can simply declare the doctrine of primacy null and void, especially not if he seeks to understand the objections and evaluates with an open mind the relative weight of what can be determined historically. Nor is it possible, on the other hand, for him to regard as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The symbolic gestures of Pope Paul VI and, in particular, his kneeling before the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch were an attempt to express precisely this and, by such signs, to point the way out of the historical impasse.
*[Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1987), p. 198]

Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.
Joseph Ratzinger****

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Scott,

… without an instrument of unity (papal primacy) the Orthodox faith has crumbled into little more than like-minded autocephalous Churches.

The Orthodox Faith IS the instrument of unity!

There is only ONE Church… one head, one body, one faith.

Jesus - The Body of Christ - The Holy Orthodox Christian Faith

To quote an Eastern Catholic from another part of CAF:

The Catholic Church has always been a communion of local Churches. That’s true even within the Latin Church that it is a communion of local churches, each led by a bishop. We can see it right from the beginning, even in the Bible they are talking about the different apostles going in different directions and establishing local churches which are in communion with the other local churches through a shared faith.

Blessings to you,
Michael

 

[m134e5]

I used to think so. After “chatting” with EO on the internet and speaking to some in real life, I see that the wounds are still deep and flowing and an en masse reunification will never happen. What will happen, and has, is that certain Eparchies and Dioceses will unify with the Church as Mar Bawai Soro has or intends to do.

marbawai.com/docs/acadenglish.pdf

marbawai.com/

This is what happened with the Melkites, the Ukrainians, and the like.

It has been my experience that many of the Eastern Orthodox I find online, are converts from fundamentalist churches. They still are as strongly anti-Catholic as they ever were. A friend of mine who is Byzantine Catholic told me that he saw a number of converts from evangelical churches convert to the Orthodox church (he was among them, until he converted to Eastern Catholicism)- usually because they couldn’t accept the papacy or any number of other uniquely Catholic doctrines.

I don’t see a reunification in my lifetime. I can maybe see better relations, and maybe even a papal visit to Russia, but I don’t see a reunification in my lifetime.

 

[JoeyWarren]

It has been my experience that many of the Eastern Orthodox I find online, are converts from fundamentalist churches. They still are as strongly anti-Catholic as they ever were. A friend of mine who is Byzantine Catholic told me that he saw a number of converts from evangelical churches convert to the Orthodox church (he was among them, until he converted to Eastern Catholicism)- usually because they couldn’t accept the papacy or any number of other uniquely Catholic doctrines.

I don’t see a reunification in my lifetime. I can maybe see better relations, and maybe even a papal visit to Russia, but I don’t see a reunification in my lifetime.

The OrthodoxForum.com really comes into the light now.

 

[Mickey]

It has been my experience that many of the Eastern Orthodox I find online, are converts from fundamentalist churches. They still are as strongly anti-Catholic as they ever were.

Poppycock! I get really tired of reading the same stale generalizations.

 

[Scott1]

Which, for the Orthodox, are united under one Orthodox Faith.

United? I can only cite Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland in his exchange of letters with (then) Cardinal Ratzinger as my source for trying to understand the problem of autocephalous Churches in Orthodoxy. Even he agreed that each acted on their own and had (other than their shared faith) as much in common with each other as they did, say, the Lutherans.

But we should not go into that road of who is better than who; if we are to seek unity, then we should look for what binds us, or will bind us, not what will further disunite us.

Fair enough my friend… just wanted to make the point that I believe (not to your suprise I’m sure ) that Papal primacy is the only thing that can unite us… or do you honestly think Constantanople and Moscow could agree on ANYTHING let alone something this important?

In the end, both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches lose, and the unity we seek for so long will only remain a dream.

Amen… we are both wounded by the lack of unity… and as Pope Benedict has said in the past: " … the proper work of the Holy Spirit is abiding unity…"

Your brother in Christ,
Scott

 

[Mickey]

Papal primacy is the only thing that can unite us

How ironic that the 1870 Latin dogma of supremacy/infallibility succeeded in widening the gap.

 

[Milliardo]

United? I can only cite Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland in his exchange of letters with (then) Cardinal Ratzinger as my source for trying to understand the problem of autocephalous Churches in Orthodoxy. Even he agreed that each acted on their own and had (other than their shared faith) as much in common with each other as they did, say, the Lutherans.

Yes, each autecephalous jurisdiction can act on its own; however, by being united, it means they still believe in one Orthodox Faith and follow the Apostolic Tradition. So we see that they can act on their own without breaking the Faith.

Fair enough my friend… just wanted to make the point that I believe (not to your suprise I’m sure ) that Papal primacy is the only thing that can unite us.

I once believed as you do, though now as an Orthodox I realized that there’s much more to it than that. But we’ll go into a much longer discussion if we discuss that issue.

or do you honestly think Constantanople and Moscow could agree on ANYTHING let alone something this important?

They agree on one Orthodox Faith, they follow one Apostolic Tradition. They may not agree on some other things, but they are still Orthodox and will defend each other for the Faith, even if they have some differences.

 

[m134e5]

Poppycock! I get really tired of reading the same stale generalizations.

I don’t intend to generalize, but some of the most anti-Catholic comments I have ever read/heard weren’t from protestants or Anglicans, they were from the Orthodox. I know not all of them are like that- or even most of them, but all it takes is a few loud, bitter people to keep groups divided.

JoeyWarren:

The OrthodoxForum.com really comes into the light now.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t intend to generalize, but some of the most anti-Catholic comments I have ever read/heard weren’t from protestants or Anglicans, they were from the Orthodox.

Yeah. And I know some really loud and obnoxious anti-Orthodox Catholics also. So what’s your point.

 

[clmowry]

You never know.

Certainly, no one who claims allegiance to Catholic theology can simply declare the doctrine of primacy null and void, especially not if he seeks to understand the objections and evaluates with an open mind the relative weight of what can be determined historically. Nor is it possible, on the other hand, for him to regard as the only possible form and, consequently, as binding on all Christians the form this primacy has taken in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. The symbolic gestures of Pope Paul VI and, in particular, his kneeling before the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch were an attempt to express precisely this and, by such signs, to point the way out of the historical impasse.
*[Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (San Francisco, CA: Ignatius Press, 1987), p. 198]

Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium.
Joseph Ratzinger

Yes but would not that which "had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium” for the eyes of the Orthodox, require a repudiation of all Catholic Dogma defined since that time.

Say Papal Infallibility for example?

At least, I think this is what you and others here have suggested.

Since this cannot happen in the Catholic Faith, I would say we are at a rather insurmountable impasse.

It is seems to me that unless the Orthodox were to come to accept these Dogma in a new ecumenical council including both the east and the west then “Houston, we have a problem.”

Chuck

 

[ForeverAdam]

Does anyone else feel a slight tingling that shortly, perhaps within a decade… or at most within your lifetime, that the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches will re-embrace and the Schism healed?

I pray it will be so!

I hold out hope that a miracle will occur within my lifetime and all Christians will be united with the Holy Orthodox Church. May God bless us in preparation for such a day!

God bless,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

… and I’d just like to mention how sad it is that if the Patriarch of Istanbul (sorry Constantinople) showed up in the US he’d have a hard time filling up a broom closet let alone Yankee Stadium… so sad that their pride prevents them from coming home and actually being a force for good in the world and not just a virtually silent historical footnote.

I hope you aren’t arguing that large numbers equals truth. If so:

“To one who says, ‘Authority is nothing else but numbers and the sum total of material strength,’ let him be anathema” - Syllabus of Errors, 60, 1864, Pope Pius IX.

God bless,

Adam