The Great Schism

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Having read up a little on the subject I am still stumped.

When the Orthodox and the Catholics split was it:

The Catholics breaking from the formerly united Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox breaking from the formerly united Catholic Church?

The Orthodox and the Catholics going their separate ways from what was once united Christianity?
 
The Roman Catholics consider the Greek Orthodox to be in schism and the Greek Orthodox consider the Roman Catholics to be in schism.
 
The Roman Catholics consider the Greek Orthodox to be in schism and the Greek Orthodox consider the Roman Catholics to be in schism.
Yeah I got that much thanks 😛

Is there an actual historical answer outside of the opinions of the two Churches?
 
Historically, the Eastern Orthodox didn’t want to follow Pope Leo IX. So they pretty much broke from the Catholic Church.
 
Having read up a little on the subject I am still stumped.

When the Orthodox and the Catholics split was it:

The Catholics breaking from the formerly united Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox breaking from the formerly united Catholic Church?

The Orthodox and the Catholics going their separate ways from what was once united Christianity?
As it is with most things regarding history and religion: It depends who you ask.

ChadS
 
It’s a complicated mess. You can’t put it in a sentence or two.

You have to read up on it.
 
It’s a complicated mess. You can’t put it in a sentence or two.

You have to read up on it.
I’ve been reading up on it for quite some time but it is almost impossible to find an unbiased source.
 
I’ve been reading up on it for quite some time but it is almost impossible to find an unbiased source.
That is because there aren’t any. The only people who write about this are already in one camp or the other. It is either a Catholic or an Orthodox, or someone with ties to one side or the other. IN the end, what matters is that they devided.

To me, it looks like a “You can’t fire me, I quit.”

Honestly, I see where both sides are coming from. I cannot get over my Catholic thoughts to see that they are right. I hear the claim about this or that, and they hold much more water than the Protestant charges against the Church. Then, I learn more and return to where I stand.

My advice: read two sources from each. Then, write a short time-line of what occured when. Then, look at it and see if that answers any questions for you. In the end, the main question is not who left but who was right.👍
 
I’ve been reading up on it for quite some time but it is almost impossible to find an unbiased source.
The facts are there, if one just reads every account for them and overlooks the interpretations. Asdmittedly there are not many facts, but one can glean them out of the accounts.

An important point I would make is that there seems to be a lack of evidence for the Orthodox refusing to “follow” this Pope (Leo). What was it this Pope wanted that the Orthodox were supposed to do? That really needs to be clarified. Reading the text of the Bull of excommunication could shed light on this.

Then the rights each party claims for itself need to be sorted out.

My answers will sound polemical to someone who does not agree with me. But in the interest of stimulating some discussion on this topic I will tell you that the Orthodox did not send a messenger to Rome to excommunicate the Pope. The fact is the Patriarch of Constantiople did not initiate any action whatever, so it is hard to see how they “left” anything.

Many Catholic sources today will say that the Bull itself was invalid, because the Pope had died before it was delivered. I don’t know that invalidity to be the case but it would be very ironic if the very instrument used to launch the schism turned out to be a worthless piece of paper.

The second point I would make, and I have pointed this out many times before, is that the Eastern Catholics did not change anything at all at the time of the schism. There was not even anything like a crises. They did not have to write new rules, there was no confusion as to who does what. The bishops of Rome literally had no function in the east, local Patriarchs and their synods took care of everything.

From the Eastern Catholic/Orthodox position nothing was done differently before or after the schism. No new doctrines, no new canons. There were no recusant “underground Papists” like one would find in England and Ireland centuries later after the protestant rebellion from Rome. The east was not governed from Rome, it had a completely different relationship to Rome than what one would find in the west.

Essentially, in the Pentarchy each church was autocephalic, meaning that each one was a unique corporate entity. Something like several companies in a strategic partnership, or a cartel. Rome was one such, Constantinople another, Alexandria and Antioch still as others.

The Roman element was undergoing rapid change, and adopting an extremely top-down style of governance. Within it’s own sphere that was perfectly acceptable. We know that the western church continued to change afterward.

In any case, we know the messengers announcing the schism came from the west and arrived in the east to tell them about it. That is an historical fact.

Michael
 
Historically, the Eastern Orthodox didn’t want to follow Pope Leo IX. So they pretty much broke from the Catholic Church.
Historically, Pope Leo IX didn’t want to remain true to the Apostolic Faith. So he pretty much broke from the Eastern Orthodox Church. 🙂
 
… The bishops of Rome literally had no function in the east, local Patriarchs and their synods took care of everything…
But the Patriarchs were never considered infallible.

I think therein lies the issue. Catholics believe that the sucessor to St Peter, ie The Pope, is infallible and the supreme leader of the Church (on earth). Orthodox don’t believe this.

Who’s right and who’s wrong? Well, trying to answer that question has caused a schism.
 
But the Patriarchs were never considered infallible.

I think therein lies the issue. Catholics believe that the sucessor to St Peter, ie The Pope, is infallible and the supreme leader of the Church (on earth). Orthodox don’t believe this.

Who’s right and who’s wrong? Well, trying to answer that question has caused a schism.
The claim of papal Infallibility never came up at the time of the schism. It is common…although understandable I guess…for Roman Catholics to read the modern Papacy back into history. This is the case here, where you are assuming the Pope was infallible in 1054AD. Assuming he actually was infallible (for arguments sake) he certainly was not aware of it and the idea did not cause the schism. It was not an issue at all.

The Pope never claimed such a power up to the eleventh century (and far beyond as well), and the Patriarchs never addressed a response to any such thing. It was a null.

In fact, the whole “Papal Infallibility” argument did not come into serious play until the nineteeenth century, after Pope Pio Nonno had declared upon his own authority the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854AD. There is no record of a bishop of any church unilaterally making such a declaration of dogma before this time (except in the case of heretics, who are legion throughout history), and formally it is claimed to be one of only two times that a dogma was ever proclaimed by a bishop of Rome.

Clearly, there was no precedent for this act, and in 1870AD Pope Pio convened a council to confirm his ability to do so…fifteen years after the fact (he was a long reigning bishop).

Now we have to try to look at this episode from the Orthodox perspective. From outside the Latin Catholic church, through the eyes of an Orthodox bishop…We hear of a bishop of a church already known to be teaching heresy (specifics have been mentioned elsewhere) claiming to be infallible. It’s just too much to bear, and I imagine they did not know whether to laugh or cry.

But this all has nothing whatever to do with the original cause of the schism. It certainly is an obstacle to reconciliation between us now, but was nothing then.

Michael
 
I have a related question: is it possible for either side to discuss the issue without going into a “you are wrong” attitude and getting condescending about it?
 
I have a related question: is it possible for either side to discuss the issue without going into a “you are wrong” attitude and getting condescending about it?
sure, but where would the fun be in that?
 
Having read up a little on the subject I am still stumped.

When the Orthodox and the Catholics split was it:

The Catholics breaking from the formerly united Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox breaking from the formerly united Catholic Church?

The Orthodox and the Catholics going their separate ways from what was once united Christianity?
LDN.

The Orthodox have a pretty strong case. You know the passage in the Creed where we say:" We believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (Filio (son)-que (and))…" but the original version was not like that. It only said the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Now… the Western Church pretty much added to the creed without asking the Eastern Church what they thought and the Eastern Church of course thought that was unacceptable when they found out about it only afterwards… and they also thought it theologically wrong.
So thats the most important theological reason… but there had been many differences in spirituality between the two “lungs” of Christianity for many years prior to that… naturally because of the wide geographical area…

Hope that helps a bit 👍
 
LDN.

The Orthodox have a pretty strong case. You know the passage in the Creed where we say:" We believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (Filio (son)-que (and))…" but the original version was not like that. It only said the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Now… the Western Church pretty much added to the creed without asking the Eastern Church what they thought and the Eastern Church of course thought that was unacceptable when they found out about it only afterwards… and they also thought it theologically wrong.
So thats the most important theological reason… but there had been many differences in spirituality between the two “lungs” of Christianity for many years prior to that… naturally because of the wide geographical area…

Hope that helps a bit 👍
It should be pointed out that the main objection was the the meaning of the words did not translate into the same thing in Greek, creating a different theological opinion. Neither side realized this problem until much later. Also, the oldest recorded filioque was from Persia, an eastern Church.
 
It should be pointed out that the main objection was the the meaning of the words did not translate into the same thing in Greek, creating a different theological opinion. Neither side realized this problem until much later. Also, the oldest recorded filioque was from Persia, an eastern Church.
I would point out that it is not only the Greeks who are confused, millions of Latin Catholics are equally confused by this meaning, which is the biggest problem about it in my opinion.

Take any group of random parishioners at a local parish and ask them what they think it means, and I assure you a huge percentage, possibly most of them who are bold enough to hazard an opinion, will say it refers to what we would all recognize as a double-procession.

I am not just making this up. I have been reading and posting here and I see it on this CAF site all the time.

As a theological construct it is the most vaguely worded thing one could imagine for a short sentence. 😊

The only way it could be acceptable to Orthodox is if it is no longer translated as “…AND the Son” and corrected to say “…THROUGH the Son” and that still would best be qualified as a temporal spiration, not eternal.

The fact that it has been inserted into the Creed is another matter entirely. So this is really two issues, not one, and it is resolvable!

I believe the Latin church has come around to verifying it does not presently teach that this is an eternal double-procession of the Holy Spirit. If the Latin Catholic church would change the translation to reflect that I am sure it would advance our cause of reconciliation by light years (a little hyperbole there 😉 ).

As for the Creed, well…just drop it out.

Michael
 
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