The great St. Nick Noble Lie Debate

  • Thread starter Thread starter claymcdermott
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

claymcdermott

Guest
Should we raise our kids agnostic on whether Santa Claus lives at the North Pole and delivers presents; should we tell them it’s a fun game to make-believe that he does; or should we go with the standard, tell them straight out that he does? Or just skip Santa altogether?

I know parents who have done the above. Has anyone tried telling the kids about Saint Nick and doing a kinda “Christmas Carol” or Chestertonian understanding? Saint Nick or Father Christmas is real, and he intercedes in a special way around Christmastime? And then let them draw their own conclusions about how their presents got there, but don’t keep that you bought them an artful secret.
 
I don’t care what society says:

Christmas is about Jesus and lying to your kids is bad. I tell mine the truth. Everyone gets mad at me.

I always tell my daughter “santa is not real but it is fun to pretend. Jesus and His angels ARE real though, and He really does know everything.” Just tell them you bought the presents to celebrate Jesus. Why lie or dance around it?

Jesus didn’t say the Devil is the “father of most lies.” He said the Devil is the father of ALL lies.
 
claymcdermott said:
Should we raise our kids agnostic on whether Santa Claus lives at the North Pole and delivers presents; should we tell them it’s a fun game to make-believe that he does; or should we go with the standard, tell them straight out that he does? Or just skip Santa altogether?

I know parents who have done the above. Has anyone tried telling the kids about Saint Nick and doing a kinda “Christmas Carol” or Chestertonian understanding? Saint Nick or Father Christmas is real, and he intercedes in a special way around Christmastime? And then let them draw their own conclusions about how their presents got there, but don’t keep that you bought them an artful secret.
Click to expand...
I believe it’s sweet to allow kids to believe in Santa Claus, and after they are an age they need to know, just explain that “Santa” was Mom and Dad.

The times I believed in Santa Claus was one of the best times of my life, believing in the magic, generosity, great love. I think it’s fine and good to allow children a time of innocence and believing before adulthood, which will take innocence away soon enough if not too soon.

There’s another take on it, like the letter to Virginia who asked if there was a Santa Claus.

nysun.com/editorials/yes-virginia/68502/
 
Agree with what ClearWater says.

Waiting for the folks who will say we are committing mortal sins…
 
MiserableSinner said:
I don’t care what society says:

Christmas is about Jesus and lying to your kids is bad. I tell mine the truth. Everyone gets mad at me.

I always tell my daughter “santa is not real but it is fun to pretend. Jesus and His angels ARE real though, and He really does know everything.” Just tell them you bought the presents to celebrate Jesus. Why lie or dance around it?

Jesus didn’t say the Devil is the “father of most lies.” He said the Devil is the father of ALL lies.
Click to expand...
^^^This. (Altho we are long past this stage with both our children and our grandchildren; the youngest grandchild is in college.)
 
Awwww, the Grinch is in the house. Darn that ol’ Grinch, anyway. I STILL believe in the Jolly Old Man…and the Spirit of giving- sharing and joy. And I’m gonna hang up my stocking with care, even if I spot a hole or two in it. Grinch be gone!!!😛
 
MiserableSinner said:
I don’t care what society says:

Christmas is about Jesus and lying to your kids is bad. I tell mine the truth. Everyone gets mad at me.

I always tell my daughter “santa is not real but it is fun to pretend. Jesus and His angels ARE real though, and He really does know everything.” Just tell them you bought the presents to celebrate Jesus. Why lie or dance around it?

Jesus didn’t say the Devil is the “father of most lies.” He said the Devil is the father of ALL lies.
Click to expand...
In that passage, Our Lord was talking to legalists who wouldn’t admit they wanted to murder him, not parents telling their children fairy tales. Where did he say the devil is the father of ALL lies? I don’t think the John 8 says that, either. If you’re making something up that isn’t there, isn’t that a lie, too, no matter how good your intentions are? Do you see where legalism can get you? The measure we use to condemn others is the measure that will be used to condemn us.

Do you refuse to be complicit in surprise birthday parties? If you can’t see your way to helping someone out with a surprise they have engineered for someone likely to enjoy it, the protocol is to keep your mouth shut. Do you bluntly make an unkind remark “because it is the truth”?

I can totally get on board with people who believe that the contemporary Santa Claus story is a counter-productive folk tradition, a fairy tale that has been tainted with the wrong message. Great! Be a parent and say you don’t believe in that folk tradition.

Having said that, I think when we get to be mature, we ought to be able to tell the difference between a folk tradition and a lie. We also ought to be very sparing with our condemnation of others. On that account, I would caution most strongly against implying to anyone, especially your children, that parents who have the Santa Claus tradition at their house are liars in the service of their father, the Devil (which is the clear implication when you start quoting John 8 to back up your point.)
 
Hi OP,

You ask if “we should raise our kids to…” Is this a question for you personally or for all of us parents?

If it’s the first, you should do what you feel is right.
If it’s the second, I think every family should decide for themselves what they should do without being judged as being inferior/less of a Christian if their family celebrations are different than someone who has decided to celebrate differently.

I just wanted to clarify because this topic has frequently popped up multiple times this season and unfortunately has resulted in some very uncharitable comments from both sides. which incidentally does the very thing both sides don’t want to do: It takes the focus off of Christ and centers it on division. This isn’t an attack on you or anyone else, it’s just that this is an endless debate no one can win and just results in fighting between well meaning Christians who have the best of intentions. I think we can all agree on one thing: We all love Jesus and will be celebrating His birth on Christmas.
 
Well, Evania, while I agree with you, I think examining our own logic for what we do is a healthy exercise, even if you can’t tell anyone else what to do.

Certainly, however, each parent knows his own children best.

But in defense of Miserable Sinner, he doesn’t tell his children Santa is bad, just that he’s fun to pretend. Which, is what Santa hopefully is anyway - just for fun. Hopefully that’s what all of his devotees think!

And Mary Estelle, if you still believe in the old man, then I assume you are like me, and take the Chestertonian/Dickensian view, which is different from both a Grinch position and a “Santa lives at the North Pole and comes down chimneys and gives presents.” - because we know that ain’t so.

So, tell your kids what you want, but have a reason why, I guess. Anyway, I think I lean toward telling kids the “Saint Nick helps bring the spirit of Christmas, the Holy Spirit, and praying to him is good at Christmas for he comes to bless us especially when the whole world prays to him.”

But, the Noble Lie is long and storied, and can’t be that bad (my mom did it after all, and her mom too, and they are two of the best humans alive;)). And it is, after all just for fun. Hopefully we all keep that in mind.😃
 
And EasterJoy and PolarGuy, just to be pedantic, Jn8:44. Jesus does say it. “Father of all Lies” is a rather common term for Old Scratch, and has been historically. I know that’s not your point; I am just pedantic. 😉
 
St. Nicholas was a real person, and Santa Claus is just a different name for Santa, so yes, Santa was real, if not in the way society paints him. Kind of how Emmanuel (Jesus) was real, even though society says a lot of non-truths about Jesus.

As for our house, we absolutely do Santa, but I also don’t lie about it. I do a lot of “What do you think?” and when that stops working, they are old enough to know the truth anyways. 👍
 
MiserableSinner said:
I don’t care what society says:

Christmas is about Jesus and lying to your kids is bad. I tell mine the truth. Everyone gets mad at me.

I always tell my daughter “santa is not real but it is fun to pretend. Jesus and His angels ARE real though, and He really does know everything.” Just tell them you bought the presents to celebrate Jesus. Why lie or dance around it?

Jesus didn’t say the Devil is the “father of most lies.” He said the Devil is the father of ALL lies.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

What has the Easter Bunny got to do with the Resurrection, what has Santa got to do with the birth of the Messiah?

Jesus didn’t institute Santa when he was born in a stable in Bethkehem.

There was no Easter Bunny with chocolate eggs at the tomb the day Jesus rose from the dead.
 
FrenzyJen said:
St. Nicholas was a real person, and Santa Claus is just a different name for Santa, so yes, Santa was real, if not in the way society paints him. Kind of how Emmanuel (Jesus) was real, even though society says a lot of non-truths about Jesus.

As for our house, we absolutely do Santa, but I also don’t lie about it. I do a lot of “What do you think?” and when that stops working, they are old enough to know the truth anyways. 👍
Click to expand...
👍
 
We never said Santa brought the presents, that I recall. But we took the kids for photos with Santa, who asked them what they wanted for Christmas. And we put Santa’s name on some of the presents.
I still remember the moment when my daughter deduced that we were Santa Claus. She must have been about five or six. She asked a couple of questions, such as how does Santa get to all the houses in one night, and can he really fly through the air, and so on, which I answered as truthfully as possible, with a lot of “um, I’m not sure.”
You could see the gears turning, and her eyes lit up as she said, “I know! You and dad are Santa!”
I was proud of her, and it was so funny.

.
 
I’ve just had to start dealing with this question with my three year old. I have also been uncertain. I discovered that whenever she asks me questions about Santa I just answer as if I am talking about St Nick, and say he is so jolly and happy because it’s the day Jesus was born. And that he gives gifts to children because he loves to make children as happy as he wants to spread the happiness he feels about Jesus being born… I dunno, I just try to bring it back to Jesus. Very new to all this. :o

lol I guess I’ll find out in a few years if it causes any psychological issue! 😃
 
I’m a fan of this approach, and it’s pretty much what we do with our kids:

Not Believing in Santa Claus is Like Not Believing in Jesus, or George Washington

An excerpt:
"…let’s address the question people really MEAN. Which is: do we and should we allow our children to believe that Santa brings them presents.
Click to expand...
We do. I think we should.
Click to expand...
When Santa brings gifts to my kids on December 6th for St. Nicholas Day and on Christmas, it allows ME to toil in secret, and to experience giving without receiving anything in return. Not even the thanks. I think that’s a good thing, "And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” (Luke 14:14)
Click to expand...
I also think that getting gifts from St. Nicholas helps my kids to understand that the saints are real and that prayers to them are efficacious. Maybe not exactly in the “put chocolate in your shoes” way it might seem now. But it’s a good start."
Click to expand...
 
claymcdermott said:
And EasterJoy and PolarGuy, just to be pedantic, Jn8:44. Jesus does say it. “Father of all Lies” is a rather common term for Old Scratch, and has been historically. I know that’s not your point; I am just pedantic. 😉
Click to expand...
Which translation puts it that way? Most of the ones I’ve read say the devil is a liar and the father of them, but not literally the father of all lies. (I don’t know, because I cannot read the original.)

You are right that this is not my point. My point is that it is an offense against the imagination to condemn folk traditions as “lies” when they do not teach an immoral message. I will wager that many people who wouldn’t “lie” about Santa Claus are willing to put candy in the shoes of children and imply that St. Nicholas had some hand in it. What is the difference, if one is being legalistic about it?

As I said, though, we always told our children that when a tag says “from Santa Claus,” it meant at the very least the the person giving the gift wanted to give in secret so that God would get all the thanks and the glory, as St. Nicholas is credited for having done. On that account, it was forbidden to try to find out if a gift marked “from Santa” was “really”* from* Santa. We would also take them to the toy store to buy gifts for other children whose parents did not have the money to give the surprises that parents want to be able to afford for their children. In other words, we let them know that these “secret Santa” gifts were both for the children and for the parents who wanted to be able to surprise their children with good Christmas memories but didn’t have the money. We never taught them “there is no Santa,” but we always taught them “there isn’t just one Santa, because ‘Santa giving’ is a saintly thing to do at Christmas time.”
 
I incorporate the real history of St. Nicholas with my family. St. Nicholas is real and is a Saint of the Church. I encourage the young ones to ask him to pray for him and if they ask him for gifts that’s fine to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top