The greater evil: poverty or abortion

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Let me rephrase that then, Poverty leads to the death, corruption & misery of people. Agree?

poverty leads people to commit abortion.
Lets keep it simple Atheist, - The premise "The greater evil…
is intrinsically wrong, in error.

Poverty is not evil.

Abortion is evil.

Poverty doesn’t lead to …Oh what’s the use…all your premises are in error.

You are using the philosophy and theology of the devil. That’s why it sounds good to you and to those who are fooled by sutil lies.

This has got to be one of the most useless, combative, litigious and empty threads on CAF.
 
An extreme lack of Faith is the true evil that leads a person to kill their own child.
If the woman is so poor and can’t afford the child, there is help out there where she can go and give the child a chance at life through adoption.
There are many people on long lists just waiting for her baby.
If a woman has true faith in God she would know that her child would have a better life and she would have the medical care she needs.

It is a win-win situation:)
There is NO reason for an abortion PERIOD!
 
A priest from Uganda came to our parish. As a child he lived in poverty, no electricity, no running water. His mother had 17 children. 17 . Unfortunately, not all lived to adulthood, but this wonderful and holy priest takes care of orphans and is personally in charge of taking care of 5 orphan boys! He feeds and clothes and provides shelter for them himself, but is by no means wealthy himself.

The point of my brief story is that this family was poor, we in the US cannot even imagine that sort of poverty. Yet that extreme poverty brought forth something beautiful, this holy and humble priest who does good for his community and the world.

Abortion is always evil and only brings forth death to the innocent,
 
“The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine.” - Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith
The problem with asking the question is that it represents a complete failure to understand Catholic teaching on either issue. In EVANGELIUM VITAE Pope John Paul II demonstrated that multiple teachings, abortion, murder, and euthanasia are part of a cohesive whole. Further, that a true culture of life must apply that same teaching in difficult ways, like the death penalty.

Failure to understand that pro life means a comprehensive span from conception to natural death undermines justification for each individual teaching. After all, if you cannot find compasion and weep for the millions of children going to bed starving in your own nation, how can you truly love a zygote (with roughly a 50/50 chance of even reaching birth) as yourself?

Poverty and abortion are not seperate issues. Overwhelmingly abortions are procured by low income/poverty mothers (in the US over half of procured abortions are for women with other children, almost 70% are for women living at low incomes or poverty). Poverty itself leads to early death, malnutrition leads to miscarriages. If you convince yourself that our teachings can be seperated and prioritized your efforts are doomed to failure. As the Church says, we must live a coherent and constructive whole.

Worse, you are undeniably turning your back on salvation. Jesus was asked multiple times in the Gospels how one could be saved. The answer, rather it was in the Good Samaritan parable in Luke or the depiction of of Son of Man passing judgement in Matthew, was always the same.

In fact, “Gospel”, is derived from the original Greek. It is “Good News”, as in bringing the good news to the poor. Ultimately, we are all cafeteria Catholics, the Lord sets a very high bar. But Catholicism without Christ is, truly, “incoherent”.
 
A priest from Uganda came to our parish. As a child he lived in poverty, no electricity, no running water. His mother had 17 children. 17 . Unfortunately, not all lived to adulthood, but this wonderful and holy priest takes care of orphans and is personally in charge of taking care of 5 orphan boys! He feeds and clothes and provides shelter for them himself, but is by no means wealthy himself.

The point of my brief story is that this family was poor, we in the US cannot even imagine that sort of poverty. Yet that extreme poverty brought forth something beautiful, this holy and humble priest who does good for his community and the world.

Abortion is always evil and only brings forth death to the innocent,
I agree with you that abortion is always evil.

I also find your some corroboration in your post for my earlier one - about the evil effects of poverty, and the choices that we rich make to allow these to carry on in perpetuity.

Not all those 17 children lived to adulthood. That means children died because of, likely, disease, malnutrition, possibly even worse. We rich have the power to prevent many of these things - so many people today die from diseases that are easily prevented in the west.

My point is that abortion is an evil choice - BUT we should not think that there are no choices when it comes to poverty. Poverty is a state of being that often exists because of evil choices; It often involves injustice, oppression, exploitation of the vulnerable.

It may not involve evil choice on the part of the impoverished, but it may well on the part of the rich.
 
The problem with asking the question is that it represents a complete failure to understand Catholic teaching on either issue. In EVANGELIUM VITAE Pope John Paul II demonstrated that multiple teachings, abortion, murder, and euthanasia are part of a cohesive whole. Further, that a true culture of life must apply that same teaching in difficult ways, like the death penalty.

Failure to understand that pro life means a comprehensive span from conception to natural death undermines justification for each individual teaching. After all, if you cannot find compasion and weep for the millions of children going to bed starving in your own nation, how can you truly love a zygote (with roughly a 50/50 chance of even reaching birth) as yourself?

Poverty and abortion are not seperate issues. Overwhelmingly abortions are procured by low income/poverty mothers (in the US over half of procured abortions are for women with other children, almost 70% are for women living at low incomes or poverty). Poverty itself leads to early death, malnutrition leads to miscarriages. If you convince yourself that our teachings can be seperated and prioritized your efforts are doomed to failure. As the Church says, we must live a coherent and constructive whole.

Worse, you are undeniably turning your back on salvation. Jesus was asked multiple times in the Gospels how one could be saved. The answer, rather it was in the Good Samaritan parable in Luke or the depiction of of Son of Man passing judgement in Matthew, was always the same.

In fact, “Gospel”, is derived from the original Greek. It is “Good News”, as in bringing the good news to the poor. Ultimately, we are all cafeteria Catholics, the Lord sets a very high bar. But Catholicism without Christ is, truly, “incoherent”.
*Herbert stands and applauds, yelling “Bravo” like a mildly impassioned English chap"
 
The problem with asking the question is that it represents a complete failure to understand Catholic teaching on either issue. In EVANGELIUM VITAE Pope John Paul II demonstrated that multiple teachings, abortion, murder, and euthanasia are part of a cohesive whole. Further, that a true culture of life must apply that same teaching in difficult ways, like the death penalty.
Please help me to understand the Church’s position on the death penalty. Pope JPII was the first papal voice that I can recall ruling the death penalty as “improper”.

I grew up being taught that the death penalty was an action that identified the cost of another human life. Bear with me a second. I wasn’t taught that the death penalty was a vindictive act or retribution (getting “even”) in any way. It is meant to set the benchmark for the cost of taking the life of another. Suppose for a moment that I say something publicly that offends a Muslim.

They subsequently kill me in cold blood and serve 26 months for a “semi-justifiable killing”, since someone was “offended” by my speech. The cost of my life was set at 26 months, instead of getting the death penalty. BTW, a very similar case actually happened. I just altered the characters involved.

Weren’t violent criminals being put to death around the time that Christ walked the earth? I have to believe there were death penalties back then. Did Jesus comment on these actions? Please advise. :confused:
 
Please help me to understand the Church’s position on the death penalty. Pope JPII was the first papal voice that I can recall ruling the death penalty as “improper”.

I grew up being taught that the death penalty was an action that identified the cost of another human life. Bear with me a second. I wasn’t taught that the death penalty was a vindictive act or retribution (getting “even”) in any way. It is meant to set the benchmark for the cost of taking the life of another.
As I understand it the position of the Church is that responsibility for defense, law enforcement, justice, and public safety are grave responsibilities. The exercise of these responsibilities sometimes requires the taking of life.
Situations such as a soldier in the field or a cop on the beat are much more immediate and may require quick action both for the safety of the community and the individual cop or soldier.
Capital punishment is different in that it is only an issue well after the fact and when the criminal is under arrest and no longer an immediate threat.
Execution is permissible if the guilt of the person has been established and if there is no other recourse.
Generally in rich modern countries that can afford prisons there is an other recourse.
Suppose for a moment that I say something publicly that offends a Muslim.

They subsequently kill me in cold blood and serve 26 months for a “semi-justifiable killing”, since someone was “offended” by my speech. The cost of my life was set at 26 months, instead of getting the death penalty. BTW, a very similar case actually happened. I just altered the characters involved.
Fortunately the in the US the “fighting words” defense ahs bee steadily loosing ground
Weren’t violent criminals being put to death around the time that Christ walked the earth? I have to believe there were death penalties back then. Did Jesus comment on these actions? Please advise. :confused:
Yes it was not uncommon in ancient times for criminals or POWs to be either enslaved or executed. (Dismas & Gesmas for example)
IIRC Jesus did not comment upon it

BUT pre-industrial societies did not have the wealth we do now to maintain jails so their options were limited.
 
Please help me to understand the Church’s position on the death penalty. Pope JPII was the first papal voice that I can recall ruling the death penalty as “improper”.
It is actually best to read the words for oneself. But let’s backup. We Catholics are creationists. Not in the sense that we literally embrace Genesis (we don’t), but in our belief that each of us posesses a soul which is a unique creation by God.

Further, we believe in a God of infinite love, infinite compassion, and infinite forgiveness. We are all sinners, we all fail to live without sin, yet God loves each of his creations infinitely, beyond our comprehension.

In his earthly ministry, Jesus instructs us to forsake vengence (You have heard it said, an eye for an eye…) and, instead, to resist evil without violence. He also repeatedly told us that the keys to salvation are to love God with all our hearts and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Further, he makes it clear that neighbor is a broad definition. Look at Matt25, notice that visiting of prisioners is listed as a criteria for final judgment.

John Paul explained that Jesus instructed us not just to love as we love each other, but as He loved us. Since Jesus is the Lord, his love is infinite. We are to love not just the good and kind, but sinners - since, ultimately, that is what we all are.

So, we value every unique creation of God very highly in our faith, from conception to natural death. We should care for the weakest among us simply for what they are, children of God, not our perception of their moral or physical worth.

The Pope noted that we have a right to protect society. In fact, if we Love our Neighbor, we have a resonsibility to protect those around us. But in a modern industrialized society, the risks of long term incarceration vs. execution are very small, seemingly unmeasurable. On the other hand, the death penalty has two problems. First, it sometimes claims innocent lives and killing an innocent life is a terrible sin in our faith, that is why we take abortion so seriously.

Second, in prematurely ending the criminal’s life, we remove the opportunity for redemption and possible salvation. Saul was, by modern secular definitions, guilty of a brutal hate crime type murder. But he renounced his sinful ways and became St. Paul. As a saint, we believe that he achieved salvation, but even if he did not our faith would very likely not exist today without him.

I, personally, really struggled with this teaching. But something my father once said seemed to help. He told me that the only things a person really believes in are the ones he will stand up for when they cost him something. I found it easy to be pro-life with regards to a helpless child, and very hard with a violent felon. But forgoing violent vengence and praying for the latter is very much in keeping with the New Testament and our faith.

I decided that if I believed in Christ and a God of infinite love, I had to at least try (I also felt a Roman Catholic obligation to obey). I still struggle with the teaching, but I have come to accept it as right and true, particularly as more problems with our death penalty system come to light.

Again, it is better to read John Paul’s words for oneself, he was a prolific and very accessible writer. But I hope the above helps.
 
I feel that asking this question is wasting my time, and will only confirm the obvious.

What is the greater evil? Poverty or abortion?

I think the former is a greater evil as those in poverty are deprived of freedom and an enriching environment to develop their abilities and enjoy life.
Had to check your profile to see if there was a six-yr-old among us. Nope. You’re 18 yrs old. One might hope (for sure, I would hope) that most 18 yr-olds are past the point of holding as primary goals these notions: 1) develop abilities; and 2) enjoy life.

Ah well, live and learn. I learned something new today.
 
"The Son of God was more noble than we; nevertheless, for us he made himself poor in this world. For love of him we have chosen the way of poverty; we shouldn’t, then, feel humiliated to go seeking alms. It is not seemly for the heirs of the kingdom to feel ashamed of the pledge of their heavenly inheritance."

Celano
Second Life : 74
 
Apart from a few Satanists, the only reason a woman ever goes for an abortion is because she doesn’t have the resources to raise the child. There can be no greater poverty.
With all due respect, that was not my observation after many years in the delivery room and obstetrics. Many, far too many, women come in for a second, third, fourth abortion. They are using it for birth control so that they can live like they please. And the majority of them were not living in poverty.
 
With all due respect, that was not my observation after many years in the delivery room and obstetrics. Many, far too many, women come in for a second, third, fourth abortion. They are using it for birth control so that they can live like they please. And the majority of them were not living in poverty.
Ah, but you see, poverty must be the cause of abortion. That way, Catholics can rationalize voting for pro-abortion politicians on the grounds that they will institute wonderful social programs, and abortion will go away because women will no longer “need” to have abortions.:rolleyes:

Now pardon me while I go wash my hands after typing that.
 
In just looking at numbers, there have been close to 50 million deaths due to abortion since Roe vs. Wade. I would question whether there have been one million deaths due to abortion since that time. Clearly, abortion is the greater evil. If it continues, it will be the evil that causes the downfall of our society. Even Islamic terrorists believe abortion is wrong. Got the picture.
Deacon Ed B
 
I enjoy these kind of discussion.

To not sit the fence, if I had to choose, I would choose abortion.

I find the forum’s labeling poverty as “evil” interesting. Yes, some poverty can be brought about by political evil (Saddam Hussein) but not all poverty can be attributed to evil.

Some poverty results from Acts of God (a tsunami, for instance) or chance, if you beleive God is hands-off in this world. I think if the forum believes that poverty is evil, then by default, they would say God would be committing evil by committing these acts.

(an illogical conclusion)

In my opinion, I agree with a literary author who wrote the fiction about King Arthur. The knights were all sitting around the roundtable philosophizing what the greatest sin of all was. Most of the knights said, “Murder.” This is where abortion would fall.

Merlin spoke up and said, “I think lying is the greatest sin of all. Every time somebody lies, a little bit of the world dies.”

I tend to agree with the mythical Merlin. I know Catholics as a whole are concerned with abortion as being the most capital of sins but I think deceptions and lies are far more damaging to humanity.
 
I just read my post. What I meant to say, was I doubt if there have been one million deaths due to poverty in our country. Compared to close to 50 million from, abortion, I would say that clearly abortion is the greater evil. These are the most defenseless among us.
Deacon Ed B
 
So obvious, it’s probably been stated, but one can’t designate poverty as an evil when it’s not always the case. The three Evangelical Counsels are poverty, chastity and obedience. Also, in and of itself, except in the most dire conditions, poverty is a state that might be used to describe one’s finances, not an evil.
 
We are not speaking of poverty as an Evangelical Council, but rather as a social evil. There are those in certain areas, due to prejudice, hatred or whatever that are oppressed. As such, this is a social evil.
Deacon Ed B
 
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