The greater evil: poverty or abortion

[buffalo]

What do you mean, “nope”? Nope, poverty is not a life issue for kids that starve to death?

It seems many of them have been fooled into thinking it was…

Unfortunately, while such one line summary statements look great in ‘Chicken Soup for the Soul’ they’re not really answers to the hard situations we can see in the world (if we travel).

All righty then - we will have to start at the beginning -

Poverty is indeed one of life’s issues to be solved by fellow man.

The very fact that life exists puts it above life’s issues.
Paradise is not located on earth. The goal of our life is eternal life. Without the chance at life we cannot achieve this goal.

We can live in poverty and die young and still make it to heaven. We cannot if we are not born.

 

[Herbert]

All righty then - we will have to start at the beginning -

Poverty is indeed one of life’s issues to be solved by fellow man.

The very fact that life exists puts it above life’s issues.
Paradise is not located on earth. The goal of our life is eternal life. Without the chance at life we cannot achieve this goal.

We can live in poverty and die young and still make it to heaven. We cannot if we are not born.

As long as we don’t kid ourselves about the fact that the choices of the rich to allow (or even encourage) poverty are responsible for many more deaths than abortion, a vast amount of those never exposed to any information about God.

Besides that…what does the Catholic Church teach about innocent babies that die…

 

[bilop]

Besides that…what does the Catholic Church teach about innocent babies that die…

For the unbaptized it teaches that we do not know their fate, and entrust them to God’s mercy. We simply can’t know.

God Bless

 

[pontoon]

I am surprised that I would find poverty listed as evil. Many priests take the vow of poverty. I would think the poor maybe closer to Jesus than anyone. I don’t consider poverty evil, perhaps some governents that keep their citizens in poverty and starving are evil and can be guilty of mass murder.

However, the murder of 1.2 million babies a year in the United States is a grave sin. Yet isn’t the greater sin the sin where good people do nothing to end it. I don’t see the bishops or priests in the United States denouncing the politicians who support abortion. I think the Catholic church and it’s leaders in the United States could unite all Christians and bring an end to abortion by denouncing the politicians who support it. I wonder is this sin of the Church of doing nothing as great as sin as St. Peter denying Jesus.

 

[buffalo]

As long as we don’t kid ourselves about the fact that the choices of the rich to allow (or even encourage) poverty are responsible for many more deaths than abortion, a vast amount of those never exposed to any information about God.

Besides that…what does the Catholic Church teach about innocent babies that die…

The choices of the rich? Did you know the rich as you refer to them pay most of the taxes in this country. Give me a break and do your homework.

 

[Herbert]

The choices of the rich? Did you know the rich as you refer to them pay most of the taxes in this country. Give me a break and do your homework.

I think you’ve inadvertantly highlighted one of issues here. Many people here are speaking almost entirely in American (U.S.) ethnocentric terms (hence, also your comment regarding the rich, though the rich will always pay most of the tax, as they have most of the money…goes without saying).

In this context, much of the talk here regarding poverty makes more sense.

However, in a world context, things don’t really gel so well.

I am one of the rich. For a while now I’ve lived in a country that has absolute poverty, not relative. My perspective on poverty and the role of we rich in the origins and perpetuation of it has expanded hugely due to “doing my homework” on it, in part because of my much greater exposure to it.

I used to feel the same way about how much I was contributing in my rich country, paying my taxes, sponsoring a couple of African kids etc…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

iI am curious as to how people can think that poverty is a greater evil than abortion. Christ himself said we will always have the poor with us. Yes, worldwide, millions die from extreme poverty. If we look at just sheer numbers, abortion kills 100’s of millions world wide each year. . In China, abortion is forced on those who have their 2nd or more pregnancies. In Russia, it is used as a means of birth control. In the U.S., there are over 1 million a year. This is not to count Canada, Central America, South America, Africa, and on and on. If we knew the true number of the slaughtered innocents each year we would be taken aback. When we speak of poverty, we are not speaking of the vow of poverty that religious make. Thats missing the boat entirely. Abortion is the killing of the most innocent and helpless in our world. Yes, I wish the Church leaders would tell those politicians who support abortion and claim to be Catholic the grave sin they are committing and permitting, all for political expediency. I do wsh the Church leaders would be brave enough to speak up, forcible and truthfully and let the chips fall where they may. If not, we as a cowardly society are doomed.
Deacon Ed B

 

[buffalo]

I think you’ve inadvertantly highlighted one of issues here. Many people here are speaking almost entirely in American (U.S.) ethnocentric terms (hence, also your comment regarding the rich, though the rich will always pay most of the tax, as they have most of the money…goes without saying).

In this context, much of the talk here regarding poverty makes more sense.

However, in a world context, things don’t really gel so well.

I am one of the rich. For a while now I’ve lived in a country that has absolute poverty, not relative. My perspective on poverty and the role of we rich in the origins and perpetuation of it has expanded hugely due to “doing my homework” on it, in part because of my much greater exposure to it.

I used to feel the same way about how much I was contributing in my rich country, paying my taxes, sponsoring a couple of African kids etc…

The rich pay more not because they have more it is because the government made a tax system that more heavily taxes them. It was not always that way.

As far as your wealth goes share it by giving to charity.

 

[Herbert]

The rich pay more not because they have more it is because the government made a tax system that more heavily taxes them. It was not always that way.

They’'ll always pay more in absolute terms, even if not in percentage terms - because they’ll pay the same tax on more money… The only way they won’t pay more is if they’re taxed less than the poor.

 

[Herbert]

Yes, worldwide, millions die from extreme poverty. If we look at just sheer numbers, abortion kills 100’s of millions world wide each year. . In China, abortion is forced on those who have their 2nd or more pregnancies. In Russia, it is used as a means of birth control. In the U.S., there are over 1 million a year. This is not to count Canada, Central America, South America, Africa, and on and on. If we knew the true number of the slaughtered innocents each year we would be taken aback.

Ummm…would you mind sharing some of the source numbers of these hundreds of millions of abortions per year?

Just asking…I’ve never seen anyone propose a figure that large before.

 

[pontoon]

Well said Deacon. How can Christians get their leaders to unite and stop the abortions in the United States and the world? Maybe for 1 month or until our leaders spoke out if no one put anything in the collection plate. I bet the bishops would start to listen.

 

[Herbert]

Interesting…while we’re having a friendly discussion I grabbed a few statistics off the intarwebs:

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million
(ok, it’s not 100s of millions, but it’s a huge amount still)

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 126,000

The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women).*[3]

Where abortions occur:
**78% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries **and 22% occur in developed countries.

Some other interesting statistics:

Those living in poverty and lacking access to essential health services, suffering hunger or even starvation, experience mental and physical health problems which make it harder for them to improve their situation.[55] One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes: in total 270 million people, most of them women and children, have died as a result of poverty since 1990.[56] Those living in poverty suffer lower life expectancy. Every year nearly 11 million children living in poverty die before their fifth birthday. Those living in poverty often suffer from hunger.[57] 800 million people go to bed hungry every night.[58] Poverty increases the risk of homelessness.[59] Increased risk of drug abuse may also be associated with poverty.[60]

Those living in poverty may suffer social isolation and rates of suicide may increase in conditions of poverty. Death of a breadwinner may decrease a household’s resilience to poverty conditions and cause a dramatic worsening in their situation. Low income levels and poor employent opportunities for adults in turn create the conditions where households can depend on the income of child members. An estimated 218 million children aged 5 to 17 are in child labor worldwide, excluding child domestic labor.[6
On that last point, sexual trafficking is a major effect of poverty in the country in which I currently reside. Which in turn creates more abortions, forced and unforced, more condom usage, and more, well, sexual dehumanization of young girls and women.

 

[fix]

Interesting…while we’re having a friendly discussion I grabbed a few statistics off the intarwebs:

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million
(ok, it’s not 100s of millions, but it’s a huge amount still)

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 126,000

The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women).*[3]

Where abortions occur:
**78% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries **and 22% occur in developed countries.

Some other interesting statistics:

Those living in poverty and lacking access to essential health services, suffering hunger or even starvation, experience mental and physical health problems which make it harder for them to improve their situation.[55] One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes: in total 270 million people, most of them women and children, have died as a result of poverty since 1990.[56] Those living in poverty suffer lower life expectancy. Every year nearly 11 million children living in poverty die before their fifth birthday. Those living in poverty often suffer from hunger.[57] 800 million people go to bed hungry every night.[58] Poverty increases the risk of homelessness.[59] Increased risk of drug abuse may also be associated with poverty.[60]

Those living in poverty may suffer social isolation and rates of suicide may increase in conditions of poverty. Death of a breadwinner may decrease a household’s resilience to poverty conditions and cause a dramatic worsening in their situation. Low income levels and poor employent opportunities for adults in turn create the conditions where households can depend on the income of child members. An estimated 218 million children aged 5 to 17 are in child labor worldwide, excluding child domestic labor.[6
On that last point, sexual trafficking is a major effect of poverty in the country in which I currently reside. Which in turn creates more abortions, forced and unforced, more condom usage, and more, well, sexual dehumanization of young girls and women.

I am very much in favor of helping to reduce poverty everywhere. What I am wondering though is that it seems you make an argument that poverty causes abortion, or sex trades, or things of that nature?

Also, what is the role of the governments in these poorer countries in terms of keeping the poor from getting more help?

 

[Herbert]

I am very much in favor of helping to reduce poverty everywhere. What I am wondering though is that it seems you make an argument that poverty causes abortion, or sex trades, or things of that nature?

The statistics indicate a correlation between poverty and abortion, and poverty and trafficking for sexual purposes. That much is clear.

Whether you would wish to maintain that sexual trafficking simply springs to life and CAUSES poverty, as opposed to the causal relationship being closer to the other way around, that’s another matter.

What I can say is that when girls are offered more options in life (here, where I live), they no longer seem to consider prostitution to be their future.

Also, what is the role of the governments in these poorer countries in terms of keeping the poor from getting more help?

Government is but one part of a multifaceted problem. The solution is not entirely in governance, as the problem has never been entirely in governance.

 

[fix]

The statistics indicate a correlation between poverty and abortion, and poverty and trafficking for sexual purposes. That much is clear.

OK, but not causation.

Whether you would wish to maintain that sexual trafficking simply springs to life and CAUSES poverty, as opposed to the causal relationship being closer to the other way around, that’s another matter.

Huh? Are you not claiming poverty results in more abortions?

What I can say is that when girls are offered more options in life (here, where I live), they no longer seem to consider prostitution to be their future.

That seems fair and reasonable, but are finances the main reason? Because if that is true the very rich out to be very moral.

Government is but one part of a multifaceted problem. The solution is not entirely in governance, as the problem has never been entirely in governance.

Great. Does that mean “rich” people in America are not to blame for the poor everywhere else?

 

[buffalo]

Interesting…while we’re having a friendly discussion I grabbed a few statistics off the intarwebs:

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 46 Million
(ok, it’s not 100s of millions, but it’s a huge amount still)

Number of abortions per day: Approximately 126,000

The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women).*[3]

Where abortions occur:
**78% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries **and 22% occur in developed countries.

Some other interesting statistics:

Those living in poverty and lacking access to essential health services, suffering hunger or even starvation, experience mental and physical health problems which make it harder for them to improve their situation.[55] One third of deaths - some 18 million people a year or 50,000 per day - are due to poverty-related causes: in total 270 million people, most of them women and children, have died as a result of poverty since 1990.[56] Those living in poverty suffer lower life expectancy. Every year nearly 11 million children living in poverty die before their fifth birthday. Those living in poverty often suffer from hunger.[57] 800 million people go to bed hungry every night.[58] Poverty increases the risk of homelessness.[59] Increased risk of drug abuse may also be associated with poverty.[60]

Those living in poverty may suffer social isolation and rates of suicide may increase in conditions of poverty. Death of a breadwinner may decrease a household’s resilience to poverty conditions and cause a dramatic worsening in their situation. Low income levels and poor employent opportunities for adults in turn create the conditions where households can depend on the income of child members. An estimated 218 million children aged 5 to 17 are in child labor worldwide, excluding child domestic labor.[6
On that last point, sexual trafficking is a major effect of poverty in the country in which I currently reside. Which in turn creates more abortions, forced and unforced, more condom usage, and more, well, sexual dehumanization of young girls and women.

It would also serve this thread well to look at the disproportionate abortion numbers in the African-American community. Its roots lie in the eugenics promoted by none other than Margaret Sanger founder of Planned Parenthood, and her desire to rid the country of the Africans. It is also interesting to link these numbers with the poverty in the black community and the fact that 3/4 of the children have no father at home and impregnate as many females as they can.

I know this post will cause some consternation, but we have to be candid enough to examine the facts.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

In talking to priests and others who have been in China, they quickly point out that if the world knew the staggering number of abortions each year in China that we would be appalled. Remember, China is a Country of more than 1 billion People and abortion is forced on its citizens. The true numbers that come out of this region are low balled. . enough said on this issue. Simply see what is going on against those most helpless. The slaughter of innocents by Herod pales in comparison.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Steve40]

You can’t be poor if you are dead. If one depends upon the other then the independant one must come first. This is true for all moral law. You can’t have a right to your body if you are dead either.

 

[Herbert]

OK, but not causation.

Huh? Are you not claiming poverty results in more abortions?

Actually I just posted statistics. When you implied I was stating causation outright, I simply made an in-turn implication you were saying it was the other way around.

Neither implication was really reasonable.

But if you’re maintain poverty does not cause crime, prostitution in greater numbers, sexual trafficking etc…are you saying it’s simply sin like any others, and purely coincidental?

Why aren’t rich girls running out to prostitution in the same numbers that poor south-east Asian girls do?

That seems fair and reasonable, but are finances the main reason? Because if that is true the very rich out to be very moral.

Yes, rich people are perfect.

Of course not, but I think we can all differentiate between people being driven to things out of desparation, and people being greedy.

Great. Does that mean “rich” people in America are not to blame for the poor everywhere else?

What is this America country you speak of? Are we not all living on a globe with hundreds of countries? I’m not some rich European who likes to hate America (USA, to be accurate).

Rather than attempting to explain the history of economics of nations in a post, books like David Landes ‘The Wealth and Poverty of Nations’ are great reading and require no technical knowledge of economics.

 

[Herbert]

It would also serve this thread well to look at the disproportionate abortion numbers in the African-American community. Its roots lie in the eugenics promoted by none other than Margaret Sanger founder of Planned Parenthood, and her desire to rid the country of the Africans. It is also interesting to link these numbers with the poverty in the black community and the fact that 3/4 of the children have no father at home and impregnate as many females as they can.

I know this post will cause some consternation, but we have to be candid enough to examine the facts.

Yes, I’ve read on those issues.

Also, the factors behind the breakdown of the family in poor black communities play a major role. Control for educatio and marriage, and black outcomes are not worse than white outcomes.