The greater evil: poverty or abortion

[Herbert]

I should point out that in my posts the one thing I have not stated is that poverty is definitely a greater evil than abortion.

What I have tried to draw attention to is that the issue is not an easy issue, but rather both have a huge impact on human life, and indeed they are interconnected.

Where I live, poor girls have abortions so they can keep working in prostitution. In rich areas, condom usage is much higher, abortions lower.

Two 11-year old kids hanged themselves recently, their family circumstances (though whole families) were so dire. Trafficking is rife, exploitation of the poor is the norm, despite greater than 80% profession of Catholicism.

Infant and maternal mortality is very high in impoverished communities. Hunger is the norm.

And much of this springs simply from decisions made by the few, hundreds of years ago. It continues unabated because of decisions made by the many today.

It’s just grating when we see people treating such issues like they can have easy pat answers…sometimes we need to get dirty, get involved…and sometimes we need to start reading works by theologians coming from the poorest billion of this world, not just the richest.

 

[Herbert]

In talking to priests and others who have been in China, they quickly point out that if the world knew the staggering number of abortions each year in China that we would be appalled. Remember, China is a Country of more than 1 billion People and abortion is forced on its citizens. The true numbers that come out of this region are low balled. . enough said on this issue. Simply see what is going on against those most helpless. The slaughter of innocents by Herod pales in comparison.
Deacon Ed B

And the thing that makes it easy is the people are powerless to resist. As was pointed out, idealogues like Margaret Sanger might have been pretty happy to implement such policies in your country, were the population not in such posession of power to resist.

Once again, the issues are not nicely separated.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think this post provides my definition of poverty (rather what poverty isn’t)

You are not in poverty if do not have to think about money about supplying your basic needs: utilities, clothing (not designer), housing (not a grandiose display of opulence, I suppose one can own an expensive house if it close to their job), transportation, access to knowledge, nutritious food and the ability to store and cook it, pharmaceuticals, health care, and adequate leisure time. That means to do not need to worry about paying their bills when providing their needs or being under stress to make their ends met.

Until today, I was unaware that I am in poverty. Well, I will admit that I eat fairly well and do have a 'fridge and an electric range. So maybe I don’t qualify after all.

 

[catharina]

I should point out that in my posts the one thing I have not stated is that poverty is definitely a greater evil than abortion.

What I have tried to draw attention to is that the issue is not an easy issue, but rather both have a huge impact on human life, and indeed they are interconnected.

Where I live, poor girls have abortions so they can keep working in prostitution. In rich areas, condom usage is much higher, abortions lower.

Two 11-year old kids hanged themselves recently, their family circumstances (though whole families) were so dire. Trafficking is rife, exploitation of the poor is the norm, despite greater than 80% profession of Catholicism.

Infant and maternal mortality is very high in impoverished communities. Hunger is the norm.

And much of this springs simply from decisions made by the few, hundreds of years ago. It continues unabated because of decisions made by the many today.

It’s just grating when we see people treating such issues like they can have easy pat answers…sometimes we need to get dirty, get involved…and sometimes we need to start reading works by theologians coming from the poorest billion of this world, not just the richest.

Herbert, I appreciate the fact that you recognize abortion as a greater evil than poverty. Back around Post 90, you thanked me for my bluntness. Here’s some more bluntness.

While it’s a grand and good thing that you as a self-confessed rich man, now recognize the injustices burdening the poor, you should perhaps (here and now) realize that you are expressing yourself on a forum for Social Justice on a Catholic website. For the Catholics here, the vast majority at any rate, the notion of foresight and expense of condom usage is an irrelevant issue. Would you mind sharing the religious faith that is yours? It seemed that in one sense you’ve been preaching to the choir; until you let loose with the condom comment. You won’t be hearing that in Catholic churches.

 

[Herbert]

Herbert, I appreciate the fact that you recognize abortion as a greater evil than poverty

Hehe, very quick to claim that ;

I sincerely hope that people here who seemed to take a ‘chicken soup for the theology’ approach and not appreciate the linked nature of things and the true evils of poverty, can embrace a wider view too…not addressing you, just a general comment.

This is not a points scoring thing, and if people have been associating what I’ve been saying all along with disagreeing with their correct theology while failing to grasp some key world-wide issues…well…you know…that would be tragically ethnocentric.

Back around Post 90, you thanked me for my bluntness. Here’s some more bluntness.

While it’s a grand and good thing that you as a self-confessed rich man, now recognize the injustices burdening the poor, you should perhaps (here and now) realize that you are expressing yourself on a forum for Social Justice on a Catholic website. For the Catholics here, the vast majority at any rate, the notion of foresight and expense of condom usage is an irrelevant issue. Would you mind sharing the religious faith that is yours? It seemed that in one sense you’ve been preaching to the choir; until you let loose with the condom comment. You won’t be hearing that in Catholic churches.

Actually, you know what? I find on this forum a tendency to clutch things which have not really been expressed…

…such as in this particular case, where my comment was not advocating contraception.

You see, when a country is Catholic, the testimony of the actions of the rich is a testimonty that the world associates with God, the one who the people of God claim to represent.

In the country I reside, the richest 20% of people have a fertility rate of 2-3 children per couple.

In the poorest 20%, the fertility rate is an astonishing 6-7 children per couple!

The problem is, it is we rich who preach AT the poor, who campaign for them to be denied access to contraception - while at the same time making hypocrites of ourselves through our own practices.

When we do not address the issues of social justice that we discuss on this forum, we play a direct role in perpetuating situations that have had, and continue to have, terrible pro-life outcomes including infant mortility, maternal mortility, sexual, trafficking, outright exploitation of the poor.

When we advocate such things through our inaction in the face of injustice, we discredit God, Jesus, and the Bible…because we fail to resemble those three things.

We also can’t help but lose credibility when we come to express our opinions…

…thankfully many followers of Christ are starting to take action. I work with many of them everyday, addressing these issues.

 

[catharina]

Hehe, very quick to claim that ;

I sincerely hope that people here who seemed to take a ‘chicken soup for the theology’ approach and not appreciate the linked nature of things and the true evils of poverty, can embrace a wider view too…not addressing you, just a general comment.

This is not a points scoring thing, and if people have been associating what I’ve been saying all along with disagreeing with their correct theology while failing to grasp some key world-wide issues…well…you know…that would be tragically ethnocentric.

Actually, you know what? I find on this forum a tendency to clutch things which have not really been expressed…

…such as in this particular case, where my comment was not advocating contraception.

You see, when a country is Catholic, the testimony of the actions of the rich is a testimonty that the world associates with God, the one who the people of God claim to represent.

In the country I reside, the richest 20% of people have a fertility rate of 2-3 children per couple.

In the poorest 20%, the fertility rate is an astonishing 6-7 children per couple!

The problem is, it is we rich who preach AT the poor, who campaign for them to be denied access to contraception - while at the same time making hypocrites of ourselves through our own practices.

When we do not address the issues of social justice that we discuss on this forum, we play a direct role in perpetuating situations that have had, and continue to have, terrible pro-life outcomes including infant mortility, maternal mortility, sexual, trafficking, outright exploitation of the poor.

When we advocate such things through our inaction in the face of injustice, we discredit God, Jesus, and the Bible…because we fail to resemble those three things.

We also can’t help but lose credibility when we come to express our opinions…

…thankfully many followers of Christ are starting to take action. I work with many of them everyday, addressing these issues.

I’m sure it’s good that you to have discovered the rest of the world and its needs as opposed to the usual “too rich to care” world that raised you. However although you are brand new here, you seem to believe that you are seeing/hearing on this site a lack of awareness, compassion and assistance that accompanied your ‘previously unaware’ lifestyle. It’s likely that you are unaware now that you’ve approached this forum and this question with an attitude that has me wondering: “How high is your horse?”

 

[Herbert]

I’m sure it’s good that you to have discovered the rest of the world and its needs as opposed to the usual “too rich to care” world that raised you. However although you are brand new here, you seem to believe that you are seeing/hearing on this site a lack of awareness, compassion and assistance that accompanied your ‘previously unaware’ lifestyle. It’s likely that you are unaware now that you’ve approached this forum and this question with an attitude that has me wondering: “How high is your horse?”

Gosh, I certainly see that every statement I make gets taken as a complete impression of one thing or another. Now I see that the pithy statements asserting how simple this thread should be are being extrapolated as “well, it’s just because you were sheltered before, not because anyone here is”…?

Though I include myself as ‘rich’, I have no real assets. I live in the 3rd world and work for a Roman Catholic aid organization. But I was never silver spoon raised, nor isolated…rather, I lived in the 3rd world as a child, and in the first world later.

In the past I was simply a follower of Christ, who had a decent job, two sponsor children, and gave a lot to charity. But I never understood true poverty. Sure, we talk of how nice it is sometimes, vows of poverty and the like…but, well, for most people it isn’t nice at all…for most, it’s tragic…and when we look at history, it’s often human choices that cause a large part of it.

I can’t read the whole forum to contextualise the way people write in a single thread, so my impression of people’s perspectives on this issue is based on reading here (and maybe another 15 threads).

So maybe we all come off less than ideal online. Certainly there’s a certain impression of dismissiveness to non-Catholics here. None of us is perfect.

 

[DixiesFinest]

I feel that asking this question is wasting my time, and will only confirm the obvious.

What is the greater evil? Poverty or abortion?

I think the former is a greater evil as those in poverty are deprived of freedom and an enriching environment to develop their abilities and enjoy life.

Abortion is the greater evil. Though the impoverished may be poor they are alive, have a free will, and most importantly…they are ALIVE.

The aborted…well, they never even got a chance.

 

[Herbert]

Gosh, I certainly see that every statement I make gets taken as a complete impression of one thing or another. Now I see my own attempts to provoke discussion beyond the one-line statements of how simple the question is are being extrapolated as “well, it’s just because you were sheltered before, not because anyone here is”…?

Though I include myself as ‘rich’, I have no real assets. I live in the 3rd world and work for a Roman Catholic aid organization. But I was never silver spoon raised, nor isolated…rather, I lived in the 3rd world as a child, and in the first world later.

In the past I was simply a follower of Christ, who had a decent job, two sponsor children, and gave a lot to charity. But I never understood true poverty. Sure, we talk of how nice it is sometimes, vows of poverty and the like…but, well, for most people it isn’t nice at all…for most, it’s tragic…and when we look at history, it’s often human choices that cause a large part of it.

I can’t read the whole forum to contextualise the way people write in a single thread, so my impression of people’s perspectives on this issue is based on reading here (and maybe another 15 threads).

So maybe we all come off less than ideal online. Certainly there’s a certain impression of dismissiveness to non-Catholics here. None of us is perfect…hey, I’m sure you didn’t mean to come across as “Hmmp, I’m glad you can see we’re right.”

 

[fix]

Actually I just posted statistics. When you implied I was stating causation outright, I simply made an in-turn implication you were saying it was the other way around.

Neither implication was really reasonable.

But if you’re maintain poverty does not cause crime, prostitution in greater numbers, sexual trafficking etc…are you saying it’s simply sin like any others, and purely coincidental?

Why aren’t rich girls running out to prostitution in the same numbers that poor south-east Asian girls do?

Yes, rich people are perfect.

Of course not, but I think we can all differentiate between people being driven to things out of desparation, and people being greedy.

What is this America country you speak of? Are we not all living on a globe with hundreds of countries? I’m not some rich European who likes to hate America (USA, to be accurate).

Rather than attempting to explain the history of economics of nations in a post, books like David Landes ‘The Wealth and Poverty of Nations’ are great reading and require no technical knowledge of economics.

I wish I could follow your points, but I cannot.

The OP asked which is the greater evil. I think you agree abortion is the greater evil. If you are saying there are many factors involved with the issue I think we all agree.

Frankly, while the issues you bring up are relevant and complex none of that explains away the constant in human nature. They seem only to explain particular cirumstances at one point in time from one singular perspective.

 

[catharina]

I sincerely hope that people here who seemed to take a ‘chicken soup for the theology’ approach and not appreciate the linked nature of things and the true evils of poverty, can embrace a wider view too…not addressing you, just a general comment…such as in this particular case, where my comment was not advocating contraception.

You see, when a country is Catholic, the testimony of the actions of the rich is a testimonty that the world associates with God, the one who the people of God claim to represent.

In the country I reside, the richest 20% of people have a fertility rate of 2-3 children per couple.

In the poorest 20%, the fertility rate is an astonishing 6-7 children per couple!

The problem is, it is we rich who preach AT the poor, who campaign for them to be denied access to contraception - while at the same time making hypocrites of ourselves through our own practices.

…

…thankfully many followers of Christ are starting to take action. I work with many of them everyday, addressing these issues.

So again, what is your stand on the use of contraception and one’s willingness to pass out condoms to “help the poor?” Isn’t it more truthful and logical to acknowledge that an actual love for one another (for ALL humanity) is at the heart of real assistance?

 

[buffalo]

Hehe, very quick to claim that ;

I sincerely hope that people here who seemed to take a ‘chicken soup for the theology’ approach and not appreciate the linked nature of things and the true evils of poverty, can embrace a wider view too…not addressing you, just a general comment.

This is not a points scoring thing, and if people have been associating what I’ve been saying all along with disagreeing with their correct theology while failing to grasp some key world-wide issues…well…you know…that would be tragically ethnocentric.

Actually, you know what? I find on this forum a tendency to clutch things which have not really been expressed…

…such as in this particular case, where my comment was not advocating contraception.

You see, when a country is Catholic, the testimony of the actions of the rich is a testimonty that the world associates with God, the one who the people of God claim to represent.

In the country I reside, the richest 20% of people have a fertility rate of 2-3 children per couple.

In the poorest 20%, the fertility rate is an astonishing 6-7 children per couple!

The problem is, it is we rich who preach AT the poor, who campaign for them to be denied access to contraception - while at the same time making hypocrites of ourselves through our own practices.

When we do not address the issues of social justice that we discuss on this forum, we play a direct role in perpetuating situations that have had, and continue to have, terrible pro-life outcomes including infant mortility, maternal mortility, sexual, trafficking, outright exploitation of the poor.

When we advocate such things through our inaction in the face of injustice, we discredit God, Jesus, and the Bible…because we fail to resemble those three things.

We also can’t help but lose credibility when we come to express our opinions…

…thankfully many followers of Christ are starting to take action. I work with many of them everyday, addressing these issues.

Astonishing that someone would have 6 children? Wow!

Exploitation of the poor - do the poor do it to each other or do the rich do it to them?

 

[Herbert]

So again, what is your stand on the use of contraception and one’s willingness to pass out condoms to “help the poor?” Isn’t it more truthful and logical to acknowledge that an actual love for one another (for ALL humanity) is at the heart of real assistance?

The point (stand) I made was that Catholics in their stand against contraception and abortion cannot afford to be hypocritical. It cannot be a case of “do what we say, not what we do”.

It is unfair for Catholics to be working against contraception being accessible to the poor IF THEY THEMSELVES are using it. We’re almost pactising a form of patronising eugenics if we do that.

Yes, love is the answer. When we work for justice and against the exploitation of the poor we give extra dignity to our public advocacy work. We demonstrate that love is really the driver behind our actions, and that we are not content to simlpy campaign against contraception while large numbers of our group use it all the same, but consider the poor worthy of our love enough that we work to give them real options in life, and the ability to provide for their children.

Hence,no , I don’t believe handing out condoms is a good answer to poverty. You work to make enough food for all, not reduce the places at the table…Hope that’s all clear this time.

Astonishing that someone would have 6 children? Wow!

Exploitation of the poor - do the poor do it to each other or do the rich do it to them?

Actually, high fertility rate is characteristic among the impoverished of the world.

When relationships are broken down so much by poverty, it’s poor to poor, and riich to poor. Both.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To Herbert
How is it wrong for Catholics to take a stand against something that is inherently wrong. If we believe it is morally wrong, we should not do it. Another example would be for one to believe that murder is ok and expecting us to say thats ok because thats what you believe. Sin, by any other name is still sin. Because some Catholics use contraception, which is wrong, does not make the argument that those who practice their faith fully, should condone it. This is totally erronious logic. it does not become OK
Deacon Ed B

 

[vern_humphrey]

To Herbert
How is it wrong for Catholics to take a stand against something that is inherently wrong. If we believe it is morally wrong, we should not do it. Another example would be for one to believe that murder is ok and expecting us to say thats ok because thats what you believe. Sin, by any other name is still sin. Because some Catholics use contraception, which is wrong, does not make the argument that those who practice their faith fully, should condone it. This is totally erronious logic. it does not become OK
Deacon Ed B

Ah, but there are so many people who believe that what “a lot of people do” or believe must be right.

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

Poverty can be, and sometimes is, temporary, Abortion is permanent.

Much poverty, at least in the US, is caused by personal choices.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Poverty can be, and sometimes is, temporary, Abortion is permanent.

Much poverty, at least in the US, is caused by personal choices.

Amen.

No one says, “Hmmm, do I want to be rich or poor? Rich or poor? I guess I’ll be poor.”

But people do make decisions like dropping out of school, taking drugs, drinking alcohol to excess, having sex out of wedlock, and so on – and those are the real “root causes” of poverty.

Of course, it would help if we were serious about providing a good education to every child – regardless of his parents’ socio-economic level.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To vern humphrey
Just because many people believe it is right, does not make it so. As Catholics we believe that the teachings of the Church, on faith and morals are infallible, and under the guidance of the Holy spirit. Truth, which is one, singular and immutable, does not vary by opinion polls, as "because thats what many believe. Truth does not change. Morality does not change. People do change, for whatever reason. That does not alter the truth.
Deacon Ed B

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

Of course, it would help if we were serious about providing a good education to every child – regardless of his parents’ socio-economic level.

Therein lies the challenge. A child’s education is not a product of a school system alone. It is ultimately directed by the parents.

A parent’s (name removed by moderator)ut and participation is generally affected by their socio-economic level. Thus, much poverty is reproductive, figuratively and literally.

 

[vern_humphrey]

To vern humphrey
Just because many people believe it is right, does not make it so.

Yes, but tell them that.

Notice how often – even on this forum – you will have people “justify” the pro-choice position by saying something like, “But many people don’t believe the unborn child is a person” or something like that.

As Catholics we believe that the teachings of the Church, on faith and morals are infallible, and under the guidance of the Holy spirit. Truth, which is one, singular and immutable, does not vary by opinion polls, as "because thats what many believe. Truth does not change. Morality does not change. People do change, for whatever reason. That does not alter the truth.
Deacon Ed B

You’re absolutely right – but follow these threads long enough, and you’ll run into every “defense” possible for abortion.