The greatest commandments...

[hellopeople]

Love God and love your neighbor. These are the two greatest commandments. Why does everyone feel the need to complicate things? The way I see it, if you are not breaking these commandments, why do you bother worrying about it?

I think a couple things that are talked about on these forums (possibly more than anything else), masturbation and birth control, seem like they don’t disrupt loving God or loving your neighbor.

I have been reading some augustine recently and this seems to be his message. All scripture should improve your love of God and love of others. That is the point of scripture. I have to agree with him. Martin Luther makes a similar point, though I am sure he will be discredited on this forum.

Playing moral gymnastics seems so silly. NFP doesn’t make any sense to me. If you are changing your sexual practices so you don’t have a baby, and taking the possibility of pregnancy out of the equation, then you are “dishonoring God” or however it is put on this forum. You could say “well, you can still get pregnant when following NFP,” but as is often pointed out, you can still get pregnant using a condom or the pill too. So really, taking pregnancy out of the equation 100% is impossible either way. I feel like NFP is just a way to play moral gymnastics. It is like strict jews using certain devices so that they technically aren’t “working on the sabbath.” I just don’t see how wearing a condom is relevant to your love of God and love of your neighbor.

Also, what if your partner has aids? Is it OK to use a condom in that circumstance, or should someone that contracts aids never have sex again?

Anyway, this post is a bit long but these things just don’t make any sense to me.

 

[thistle]

Love God and love your neighbor. These are the two greatest commandments. Why does everyone feel the need to complicate things? The way I see it, if you are not breaking these commandments, why do you bother worrying about it?

I think a couple things that are talked about on these forums (possibly more than anything else), masturbation and birth control, seem like they don’t disrupt loving God or loving your neighbor.

I have been reading some augustine recently and this seems to be his message. All scripture should improve your love of God and love of others. That is the point of scripture. I have to agree with him. Martin Luther makes a similar point, though I am sure he will be discredited on this forum.

Playing moral gymnastics seems so silly. NFP doesn’t make any sense to me. If you are changing your sexual practices so you don’t have a baby, and taking the possibility of pregnancy out of the equation, then you are “dishonoring God” or however it is put on this forum. You could say “well, you can still get pregnant when following NFP,” but as is often pointed out, you can still get pregnant using a condom or the pill too. So really, taking pregnancy out of the equation 100% is impossible either way. I feel like NFP is just a way to play moral gymnastics. It is like strict jews using certain devices so that they technically aren’t “working on the sabbath.” I just don’t see how wearing a condom is relevant to your love of God and love of your neighbor.

Also, what if your partner has aids? Is it OK to use a condom in that circumstance, or should someone that contracts aids never have sex again?

Anyway, this post is a bit long but these things just don’t make any sense to me.

Because Jesus specifically told us to keep the Commandments and even gave examples.

Matt 19:16-19
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”

17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;

19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

 

[hellopeople]

Because Jesus specifically told us to keep the Commandments and even gave examples.

Matt 19:16-19
16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”

17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " 'You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;

19 honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

I can’t argue with any of those either. Those ALL relate to loving your neighbor as yourself. All of those things are against your neighbor and are thus included in the golden rule.

EDIT: Also, this passage is an explicit guide to “entering into life.” If it took more than these particular commandments, then Jesus would be misleading this man. If anything this just strengthens my argument.

 

[StillWondering]

Depends on what you mean by love. If it is the life immersed love where all things are ordered to God. Sure. Cause with that love, you won’t be masturbating or killing people right and left. You won’t be using birth control and all sorts of things.

If you just mean that feeling of love that most television shows talk about. Sure I can love someone, but I can still torture them. What if that’s my version of love?

There are things rightly ordered to God and there’s everything else.

 

[hellopeople]

Depends on what you mean by love. If it is the life immersed love where all things are ordered to God. Sure. Cause with that love, you won’t be masturbating or killing people right and left. You won’t be using birth control and all sorts of things.

If you just mean that feeling of love that most television shows talk about. Sure I can love someone, but I can still torture them. What if that’s my version of love?

There are things rightly ordered to God and there’s everything else.

Paul explains love in 1st Corinthians.

"1 Corinthians 13:1-13 - Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. "

That is the version of love that one should follow. What do you mean by “life immersed love?”

 

[Eris_Discordia]

Wow, you are brave, putting this out there. Really. I’ve been wondering a lot of the same things, I’ve just been hesitant about sharing them.

 

[Disciple4Christ]

Love God and love your neighbor. These are the two greatest commandments. Why does everyone feel the need to complicate things?.

We are not trying to complicate things it is very simple follow the rules as God has given them to us and mother church has explained them to us. You being defiant and not trusting wanting an explanation for every word, are the one responsable for the complications.

The way I see it, if you are not breaking these commandments, why do you bother worrying about it?

So are you trying to say 2 out of 10 is good enough?? Jesus told us what we need to do in many places in Scripure and Tradition. We cannot just seattle for the things we choose to do that won’t interfere with our lifestyle, we are called to conversion.

I think a couple things that are talked about on these forums (possibly more than anything else), masturbation and birth control, seem like they don’t disrupt loving God or loving your neighbor.

Seems you do not understand to well what offends God. Both of these sins are clearly taken from Scripture even though the “words” may differ the meaning is clear.

I have been reading some augustine recently and this seems to be his message. All scripture should improve your love of God and love of others. That is the point of scripture. I have to agree with him. Martin Luther makes a similar point, though I am sure he will be discredited on this forum.

You should find no disagreement on the importance of the Love of God and the Love of your neighbor here. These are absolutely the foundation of our faith.
That said if you Love God you will obey him He built a church to guide us and He is still in that church guiding it. He gave us seven Sacraments to help us to give us Grace, strength, wisdom not of the world but of God Himself. Jesus prayer in John 17 was for unity being of one mind not thousands of opinions.

P

laying moral gymnastics seems so silly. NFP doesn’t make any sense to me. If you are changing your sexual practices so you don’t have a baby, and taking the possibility of pregnancy out of the equation, then you are “dishonoring God” or however it is put on this forum. You could say “well, you can still get pregnant when following NFP,” but as is often pointed out, you can still get pregnant using a condom or the pill too. So really, taking pregnancy out of the equation 100% is impossible either way. I feel like NFP is just a way to play moral gymnastics. It is like strict jews using certain devices so that they technically aren’t “working on the sabbath.” I just don’t see how wearing a condom is relevant to your love of God and love of your neighbor.

Also, what if your partner has aids? Is it OK to use a condom in that circumstance, or should someone that contracts aids never have sex again?

Anyway, this post is a bit long but these things just don’t make any sense to me.

NFP the key word would be natural ( God given ) way to plan with discretion for hard times he knew we would have to endure.
Condoms lead to recreational sex and lure us towards a sense of security for adultry. That leads to lack of respect for the Sacrament of Marriage. Can you see where this is going?
The family is losing it’s importance here then life itself, abortion killing of innocents and elderly.Morality is stomped into the mud. And many people walking around Blind like yourself through no fault of there own, saying just as you have so many times **" I just don’t see"
**I pray God may rain down his Grace upon you and flood you with understanding.
Leave your umbrella at home and soak it up.
Peace be with you.

 

[OraLabora]

Based on my short stay on this forum, if this forum was all I knew about Catholicism, I’d tell you that the greatest commandment is “Thou shalt not masturbate”.

And I am a fairly orthodox Catholic. It seems that this particular forum has an obsession with the topic.

 

[hellopeople]

Based on my short stay on this forum, if this forum was all I knew about Catholicism, I’d tell you that the greatest commandment is “Thou shalt not masturbate”.

And I am a fairly orthodox Catholic. It seems that this particular forum has an obsession with the topic.

lol, that is good. It is so true.

 

[thistle]

Love God and love your neighbor. These are the two greatest commandments. Why does everyone feel the need to complicate things? The way I see it, if you are not breaking these commandments, why do you bother worrying about it?

I think a couple things that are talked about on these forums (possibly more than anything else), masturbation and birth control, seem like they don’t disrupt loving God or loving your neighbor.

I have been reading some augustine recently and this seems to be his message. All scripture should improve your love of God and love of others. That is the point of scripture. I have to agree with him. Martin Luther makes a similar point, though I am sure he will be discredited on this forum.

Playing moral gymnastics seems so silly. NFP doesn’t make any sense to me. If you are changing your sexual practices so you don’t have a baby, and taking the possibility of pregnancy out of the equation, then you are “dishonoring God” or however it is put on this forum. You could say “well, you can still get pregnant when following NFP,” but as is often pointed out, you can still get pregnant using a condom or the pill too. So really, taking pregnancy out of the equation 100% is impossible either way. I feel like NFP is just a way to play moral gymnastics. It is like strict jews using certain devices so that they technically aren’t “working on the sabbath.” I just don’t see how wearing a condom is relevant to your love of God and love of your neighbor.

**Also, what if your partner has aids? Is it OK to use a condom in that circumstance, or should someone that contracts aids never have sex again? **
Anyway, this post is a bit long but these things just don’t make any sense to me.

I assume by partner you are talking about husband or wife as its a grave sin for anyone else to be having a sexual relationship.
It is NEVER okay for a husband to use a condom for birth control purposes or to prevent disease. On the disease aspect abstinance is the only way. Any husband who would risk infecting his wife by having sexual intercourse (condoms are not 100% safe) is certainly not loving her. Such an act would be rejecting God’s love and certainly not loving his neighbour (in this case his wife).

 

[CatofAlexandria]

I think it’s really difficult to approach the Gospels with the education that we’re given nowadays. Jesus says “love,” but what does that mean? Corinthians sounds nice, too, but really, what does “patient,” “kind,” and “not self-seeking” mean? Of course, Jesus’ life and sacrifice as portrayed in the Gospels is a wonderful way to fill in these words. Jesus shows us, for example, that sacrificing yourself is the greatest type of love, but it’s not every day that we’re asked to die for a friend, so what does “self-sacrificing” mean for us?

We have Church teaching and Church tradition to fill in these gaps for us, and to help illuminate what it means to Love. Just as the U.S. Supreme Court uses precedent and reason to interpret the U.S. Constitution, we use our tools to interpret Holy Scripture.

Looking at it this way, I’ve never thought of the Church’s teachings as a bunch of nosy rules and regulations, but more as a comprehensive guide as to what “love” and “self-sacrificing” really mean. Unfortunately, when you grow up as a Catholic it’s hard to see it that way. I had the luxury of coming into the Church only a few years ago, and with a background in ancient Greek philosophy! You’d be surprised how similar the Catholic moral theology is to the philosophy of Aristotle and Plato. These great thinkers knew that morality was in the details and sought to understand what “love” and “justice” really meant.

I suggest that you start to do some serious reading and thinking if you really want to seek truth on this subject. If you wish not to be bothered with Church doctrine, start with Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics, then read the Gospels again. After that, I’d suggest something like Love and Responsibility by Pope John Paul II.

Catholic teaching is not more complicated then it needs to be. Really, it’s just comprehensive.

 

[StillWondering]

Paul explains love in 1st Corinthians.

"1 Corinthians 13:1-13 - Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. "

That is the version of love that one should follow. What do you mean by “life immersed love?”

“life immersed love” means that every facet of our lives are filled with this love.

Since love rejoices in the truth, love naturally evangelize so we can share the truth of God to all since we love all.

Since love does not delight in evil, we admonish the sin and curb the sinner since we love the sinner.

Since love keeps no record of wrongs, we forget after we forgive. Until repentance, we struggle with the sinner to bring them home since love rejoices in truth.

Since love is not easily angered, it reserves its wraith for when strength of arms is needed. Else it is peaceful and seeks peaceful resolutions.

Since love is not self-seeking, it aims for the very best for those it loves. Since all humanity is deserving of love, we need to offer the very best to all of the nations, Christ and his teachings in it’s fullness – anything less would be selfish and anything more would come from evil. Remember when Jesus rebukes Peter after handing him the keys to Heaven and Earth.

Since love is not rude, it seeks to understand those it is sharing itself with. For to truly seek the best for others, love needs to understand the other.

Since love is not proud, love works for others in humble and honestly ways. It does not scream it’s own name nor have power struggles with those it loves.

 

[StillWondering]

Based on my short stay on this forum, if this forum was all I knew about Catholicism, I’d tell you that the greatest commandment is “Thou shalt not masturbate”.

And I am a fairly orthodox Catholic. It seems that this particular forum has an obsession with the topic.

This is a problem many people deal with because this is usually dealt with after the other big problems: adultery, stealing, fighting, and hatefulness.

Some people come to get help and support, it is not our place to judge or even remember the number of times people talk about their troubles. We are here to support and help each other in what ways we can.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

Love God and love your neighbor. These are the two greatest commandments. Why does everyone feel the need to complicate things? The way I see it, if you are not breaking these commandments, why do you bother worrying about it?

Jesus didn’t say these were the only commandments. For instance, he also warns against drunkenness, just as an example.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

 

[Reuben_J]

Love God and love your neighbor. These are the two greatest commandments. Why does everyone feel the need to complicate things? The way I see it, if you are not breaking these commandments, why do you bother worrying about it?

I think a couple things that are talked about on these forums (possibly more than anything else), masturbation and birth control, seem like they don’t disrupt loving God or loving your neighbor.

I have been reading some augustine recently and this seems to be his message. All scripture should improve your love of God and love of others. That is the point of scripture. I have to agree with him. Martin Luther makes a similar point, though I am sure he will be discredited on this forum.

Playing moral gymnastics seems so silly. NFP doesn’t make any sense to me. If you are changing your sexual practices so you don’t have a baby, and taking the possibility of pregnancy out of the equation, then you are “dishonoring God” or however it is put on this forum. You could say “well, you can still get pregnant when following NFP,” but as is often pointed out, you can still get pregnant using a condom or the pill too. So really, taking pregnancy out of the equation 100% is impossible either way. I feel like NFP is just a way to play moral gymnastics. It is like strict jews using certain devices so that they technically aren’t “working on the sabbath.” I just don’t see how wearing a condom is relevant to your love of God and love of your neighbor.

Also, what if your partner has aids? Is it OK to use a condom in that circumstance, or should someone that contracts aids never have sex again?

Anyway, this post is a bit long but these things just don’t make any sense to me.

Excuse me, but the way you say it shows that you do not understand what it means to love God. What you are saying here mainly about not loving God and to a lesser extent not loving your neighbors.

Loving God whom you cannot see means to be obedient to his commandments and not wanting to hurt, reject or disappoint him. This is all layman language but I hope you will not misconstrue it.

Masturbating, Birth Control is acts of not loving him. If you love me you will obey my commandment. These are abominations to God.

Using condom may to some extent, besides an act of not loving God, is also not loving your neighbor, the definition of neighbor being anyone else other than yourself. Using condom is knowingly depriving a partner of the possibility of pregnancy. Not only this is against what God wants but also the partner, if she would want a child of her own. If she does not, it will put her in a sinful situation. Anything that does not do any good for her, in this case sin, is an act of not loving your neighbor.

Basically the greatest commandments are to be found in the Ten Commandments. The first three being the Commandments about loving God and the rest about loving your neighbors.

God bless.

 

[jrgiancola]

Actually, Christians are not bound by the Ten Commandments. Paul makes this very clear in Romans. Christ fulfilled the old law; we are under the new law. Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself is the new law. I do not believe that masturbation or wearing condoms is an “abomination” to God. What IS an abomination to God is the failure to love as Jesus described: Feed the hungry; clothe the naked, visit those in prison; comfort those who mourn; heal the sick. Compared to these latter commands, masturbation and condoms pale in comparison. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you is another way of summarizing these. Who really cares about masturbation or condoms? They’re not even worth discussing.

 

[crazzeto]

These are the greatest commandments, because if you do not observe these you can not possibly hope to follow any of the other commandments which one must follow in order to be saved. I think the error with your POV is that you’re viewing the two great commandments as sort of a bare minimum… Sort of like “well if you want to just sqeeze your way into heaven, at least do these things”. That’s an erroneous way to look at them, rather view them as the guiding principal behind the 10 commandments and the teachings of Christ (think Sermon on the Mount).

 

[hellopeople]

Actually, Christians are not bound by the Ten Commandments. Paul makes this very clear in Romans. Christ fulfilled the old law; we are under the new law. Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself is the new law. I do not believe that masturbation or wearing condoms is an “abomination” to God. What IS an abomination to God is the failure to love as Jesus described: Feed the hungry; clothe the naked, visit those in prison; comfort those who mourn; heal the sick. Compared to these latter commands, masturbation and condoms pale in comparison. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you is another way of summarizing these. Who really cares about masturbation or condoms? They’re not even worth discussing.

Actually, from my reading of Romans, I took away that the moral rules of the law should be kept, but things like circumcision and food laws do not have to be. That is what a renowned scholar of Paul told me at least.

 

[crazzeto]

Actually, from my reading of Romans, I took away that the moral rules of the law should be kept, but things like circumcision and food laws do not have to be. That is what a renowned scholar of Paul told me at least.

You’re correct, one can not read the Epistles of Paul as denying the clear teaching of Christ that we are in fact, bound to the commandments and the moral law. We know we’re not bound to levitical laws due to a specific vision granted peter in acts 10:

drbo.org/chapter/51010.htm

11 And he saw the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as it were a great linen sheet let down by the four corners from heaven to the earth: 12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. 14 But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. 15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time: That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common.

I’m hard pressed though, to extend this out to a denial of the moral law, and contridiction of Christ’s clear teaching.

 

[CatofAlexandria]

In light of the Gospels, the greatest commandments are properly interpreted as as a commandment to give yourself to others. Give yourself to God, and give yourself to your neighbors, such that “the last will be first.” If you understood the reasoning behind the Church’s sexual teachings, you would also understand that that these teachings correspond perfectly with this self-gift commandment.