The greatest commandments...

[gardenswithkids]

Love God and love your neighbor. These are the two greatest commandments. Why does everyone feel the need to complicate things? The way I see it, if you are not breaking these commandments, why do you bother worrying about it?..
…Anyway, this post is a bit long but these things just don’t make any sense to me.

Why do you assume people are only trying complicate things? What you see as “complications” are ways to love God with the whole heart, soul and mind and to love neighbor.

Look at one of the Bible verses where Jesus spoke two greatest commandments. The Pharisees posed the question, “Which is the greatest commandment?” because they wanted to trap Jesus. Here’s Matthew 22:34-40

When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35and one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36‘Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?’ 37He said to him, ‘ “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” 38This is the greatest and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’

You seriously misunderstand life and sexuality if you don’t see how sexual matters relate to loving God and neighbor. Jesus did not say loving God and neighbor were the only commandments–He said they are the greatest on which hang all the law and the prophets. The Catholic Church teachings on human sexuality are based those two greatest commandments.

 

[crazzeto]

In light of the Gospels, the greatest commandments are properly interpreted as as a commandment to give yourself to others. Give yourself to God, and give yourself to your neighbors, such that “the last will be first.” If you understood the reasoning behind the Church’s sexual teachings, you would also understand that that these teachings correspond perfectly with this self-gift commandment.

The CC teaches the great commandment as “Love God with all your heart, and all your being”

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=10&l=27&f=s#x

He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.

Not that I don’t appriciate what you’re saying though…

 

[CatofAlexandria]

The CC teaches the great commandment as “Love God with all your heart, and all your being”

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=10&l=27&f=s#x

Not that I don’t appriciate what you’re saying though…

Loving God “with all your heart and all your being” means giving yourself to God.

See Mark 10:17-31 –
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.” Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

How did Jesus show us love? He gave his life for us. How do we show Jesus love? We give our life for Him. Loving God means self-sacrifice. We are talking about the same thing.

 

[hellopeople]

You seriously misunderstand life and sexuality if you don’t see how sexual matters relate to loving God and neighbor. Jesus did not say loving God and neighbor were the only commandments–He said they are the greatest on which hang all the law and the prophets. The Catholic Church teachings on human sexuality are based those two greatest commandments.

Do I though? If you have premarital sex under false pretenses (pretending you are more serious about a relationship than you are…basically not being on the same page as the person you are doing it with) then you are not loving your neighbor. But if you both love each other, or both are only doing it for sexual enjoyment, how is it different? The day before your wedding it is a sin to have sex with the woman who will be your wife. The next day it is not a sin anymore? How can the same act be a sin one day and not a sin the next? How does that effect your love of God.

And masturbation is even more harmless. It doesn’t interfere with loving your neighbor or God. You can make all sorts of connections like “well God gave us sex as a gift” or something else. It is just a big leap to be honest. Do you really think that someone that uses a condom having sex with their wife cannot love God or his neighbor as much as someone who does not? That is just silly.

 

[crazzeto]

Do I though? If you have premarital sex under false pretenses (pretending you are more serious about a relationship than you are…basically not being on the same page as the person you are doing it with) then you are not loving your neighbor. But if you both love each other, or both are only doing it for sexual enjoyment, how is it different? The day before your wedding it is a sin to have sex with the woman who will be your wife. The next day it is not a sin anymore? How can the same act be a sin one day and not a sin the next? How does that effect your love of God.

And masturbation is even more harmless. It doesn’t interfere with loving your neighbor or God. You can make all sorts of connections like “well God gave us sex as a gift” or something else. It is just a big leap to be honest. Do you really think that someone that uses a condom having sex with their wife cannot love God or his neighbor as much as someone who does not? That is just silly.

True love, agape i.e. the self sacraficing love Christ has for us and which he urges us to share with eachother is not compatible with this kind of self gratification. If you truely love your neighor, you would not hurt them by using them for your own personal sexual gratification.

 

[hellopeople]

True love, agape i.e. the self sacraficing love Christ has for us and which he urges us to share with eachother is not compatible with this kind of self gratification. If you truely love your neighor, you would not hurt them by using them for your own personal sexual gratification.

What if the person you have sex with is doing the same thing? Do to others as you would want them to do to you…seems to follow the golden rule to me.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Do I though? If you have premarital sex under false pretenses (pretending you are more serious about a relationship than you are…basically not being on the same page as the person you are doing it with) then you are not loving your neighbor. But if you both love each other, or both are only doing it for sexual enjoyment, how is it different? The day before your wedding it is a sin to have sex with the woman who will be your wife. The next day it is not a sin anymore? How can the same act be a sin one day and not a sin the next? How does that effect your love of God.
y.

Yes. :yup:
Pre-marital sex by definition is pretending to be in a more serious relationship than you are in. Sexual relations are something that God wants reserved for marriage. It is a physical bond with the body that represents the bonds of your entire lives. That sexual bond often results in the bonds of DNA that create another human being.

How can an act be a sin one day and not the next? Because the circumstances are different. Set aside the notion of “sin” for a moment to look at secular traffic laws. Do you regularly run red lights simply because the light will be green in a moment?

 

[crazzeto]

What if the person you have sex with is doing the same thing? Do to others as you would want them to do to you…seems to follow the golden rule to me.

Whether or not that person is also sinning, really doesn’t affect your own guilt and culpibility. If that’s the case, then it just so happens that you had the same idea… But of course if you’re doing this, you really don’t care whether or not that’s the case do you? Thus, such and act can never be compatible with agape love.

 

[gardenswithkids]

What if the person you have sex with is doing the same thing? Do to others as you would want them to do to you…seems to follow the golden rule to me.

Misses the first rule and most important rule of loving God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength. And it’s not “loving your neighbor” to use another person as a sexually toy, even if they are doing the same to you.

 

[hellopeople]

Whether or not that person is also sinning, really doesn’t affect your own guilt and culpibility. If that’s the case, then it just so happens that you had the same idea… But of course if you’re doing this, you really don’t care whether or not that’s the case do you? Thus, such and act can never be compatible with agape love.

That assumption is quite off. Just because you are having pre marital sex does not mean that you don’t care about the other person’s feelings. There is a difference between being on the same page with someone when having sex with them and leading them on and pretending you are interested (or are in) a serious relationship with them, even though that is not your intention.

 

[hellopeople]

Misses the first rule and most important rule of loving God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength. And it’s not “loving your neighbor” to use another person as a sexually toy, even if they are doing the same to you.

I don’t see the connection between loving God with my whole heart, mind, soul, and strength and having sex with someone.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I don’t see the connection between loving God with my whole heart, mind, soul, and strength and having sex with someone.

Welcome to the forums hellopeople!

Without taking a stand on this issue either way, I think that one must realize that without having very strict and powerful guidelines on the topic of sex, you loose more control over the individual. It would be imparative to have this control in order to make powerful claims of authority. The stricter the rules are, the more powerful the organization will be. Those with the stricter rules have more longevity than other groups. Food is a need, and it too becomes a topic in relgions.
Many people find comfort in a group where the rules are very predictable and go on with little or no change or alteration, and if changes happen they hope it is not within their lifetime.

 

[davidv]

I don’t see the connection between loving God with my whole heart, mind, soul, and strength and having sex with someone.

Are you willing to learn the connection?

Several of the prior respondents attempted to give you that understanding.

 

[hellopeople]

Are you willing to learn the connection?

Several of the prior respondents attempted to give you that understanding.

I don’t think that it is something that I am just going to learn. I think it is something that I need to be convinced of…and I don’t know how easy that would be.

Do I think that it is wrong to masturbate? Not really, no. Do I think that it is wrong to use condoms? No, and I think that in some cases it would be immoral to tell people not to use them (Africa for example). Do I think that there is something wrong with pre marital sex? No, not really, as long as the people doing it are on the same page and one person isn’t deceiving the other. I have heard all the logic behind this that sex is a gift from God and things of that nature, but I just don’t buy it to be honest. And if these things are sins, they are far from serious sins. If they were so serious, why would Jesus either not talk about them, or the writers of the gospel leave out what Jesus said about it because they didn’t deem it to be important? In my opinion, not holding the door for someone behind you and them thinking “that guy is a jerk” is far more of a sin than using a condom when you have sex. And to be honest I don’t think that anything will logically convince me otherwise.

One of these acts gets someone upset. The other act does absolutely nothing in relation to others and your view of God. And if you think that using condoms somehow cheapens sex, you are sorely mistaken, because I have had very loving marital consummations with my wife while using a condom.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

Do I think that there is something wrong with pre marital sex? No, not really, as long as the people doing it are on the same page and one person isn’t deceiving the other. I have heard all the logic behind this that sex is a gift from God and things of that nature, but I just don’t buy it to be honest. And if these things are sins, they are far from serious sins. If they were so serious, why would Jesus either not talk about them, or the writers of the gospel leave out what Jesus said about it because they didn’t deem it to be important?

They condemmed prostitution. Why would this be condemmed if pre-marital sex wasn’t a sin?

Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 21:31
They are clearly referred to as sinful. This is sort of like saying “a kindergardener could pass this test before you could”.

1 Corinthians 6:18

And if these things are sins, they are far from serious sins.

Sexual sins are especially serious, because you sin against your own body

Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Sexual immorality

The same verse in King James reads

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

I’m not sure if forinication is the exact word used, the greek word can translate either way, but it is referring to sexual immorality. The Church has interpreted references to, for instance, “unchasteness” in the New Testament to include masturbation.

On

e of these acts gets someone upset.

But it doesn’t matter if an act gets someone upset. For instance, drunkenness does not necessarily get people upset. Jesus also said you can sin “in your heart”, and that wouldn’t get people upset.

 

[turboEDvo]

They condemmed prostitution. Why would this be condemmed if pre-marital sex wasn’t a sin?

So, I’m not disagreeing with you here, but that is faulty logic.

Prostitution could have other reasons for being sinful even if premarital sex were not considered inherently sinful:
-Focus on lust, not love (not necessarily true with premarital sex)
-The sale of something that is supposed to be used as an expression of love (not necessarily true with premarital sex)

Like I said, I’m not knocking the idea that premarital sex is wrong, but this argument is a non sequitur.

Eamon

 

[hellopeople]

So, I’m not disagreeing with you here, but that is faulty logic.

Prostitution could have other reasons for being sinful even if premarital sex were not considered inherently sinful:
-Focus on lust, not love (not necessarily true with premarital sex)
-The sale of something that is supposed to be used as an expression of love (not necessarily true with premarital sex)

Like I said, I’m not knocking the idea that premarital sex is wrong, but this argument is a non sequitur.

Eamon

Yes…big difference between making a living off of having sex with people and having sex before marriage.

 

[hellopeople]

I’m not sure if forinication is the exact word used, the greek word can translate either way, but it is referring to sexual immorality.** The Church has interpreted references to, for instance, “unchasteness” in the New Testament to include masturbation.**

On But it doesn’t matter if an act gets someone upset. For instance, drunkenness does not necessarily get people upset. Jesus also said you can sin “in your heart”, and that wouldn’t get people upset.

Getting masturbation out of unchasteness is QUITE the stretch. Being unchaste is adultery. There is going to be a big difference in my reactions if I come home and my wife is masturbating and if I come home and my wife is having sex with another man. But these things are the same, or in the same category? I don’t think so.

As for drunkenness, I don’t think that it is a sin. I think you are a lot more likely to commit other sins if you are drunk, but just getting drunk is not a sin in my opinion.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I don’t think that it is something that I am just going to learn. I think it is something that I need to be convinced of…and I don’t know how easy that would be.

… I have heard all the logic behind this that sex is a gift from God and things of that nature, but I just don’t buy it to be honest. And if these things are sins, they are far from serious sins. If they were so serious, why would Jesus either not talk about them, or the writers of the gospel leave out what Jesus said about it because they didn’t deem it to be important? … And to be honest I don’t think that anything will logically convince me otherwise. …

Okay, since you don’t seem to want to learn, I won’t bother trying to convince you. I hope we at least answered your original question about the “greatest commandments” by pointing out that many of us believe that human sexuality relates very directly to loving God and loving neighbor. We aren’t simply trying to complicate matters.

Since you have begun reading St. Augustine, that’s a good start. If you continue reading his writings, eventually you may stumble across what he wrote about Christian marriage and contraception.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Okay, since you don’t seem to want to learn, I won’t bother trying to convince you. I hope we at least answered your original question about the “greatest commandments” by pointing out that many of us believe that human sexuality relates very directly to loving God and loving neighbor. We aren’t simply trying to complicate matters.

Since you have begun reading St. Augustine, that’s a good start. If you continue reading his writings, eventually you may stumble across what he wrote about Christian marriage and contraception.

I couldn’t agree more. Once you read about some things St. Augustine said about women, you will certainly have much more ability to see the catholic thinking process for what it is. Please read more Augustine.