The greatest commandments...

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I don’t see the connection between loving God with my whole heart, mind, soul, and strength and having sex with someone.
hellopeople, what is your definition of loving God with your heart, strength, mind and soul? What does it entail by loving him this way?

Similarly to loving your neighbors and what does it entails?


I post a thought on this earlier on but that’s just my thought and maybe does not figure in this discussion. But really, before you can really discuss on what is and not, you have to define the above first and then move on from there.

Saying you loving God and loving your neighbor without really knowing what it means will only bring the discussion without direction. It is like knowing Jesus. I can say I know Jesus. But do I really know Him? Is my knowing him based on my information of him in the Bible and the church teaching but apart from that He does not make any impact and changes in my life? That’s like not knowing him at all.

God bless.
 
I think loving people is trying to be the best person you can be. Basically going out of your way to help people. Trying to be as polite and as nice as possible. I think that loving God can be shown through your actions with other human beings. I don’t have the quote off hand, but I am sure that you guys can point me to it (the one that says the way you treat others is basically like the way you treat God).
 
Getting masturbation out of unchasteness is QUITE the stretch. Being unchaste is adultery. There is going to be a big difference in my reactions if I come home and my wife is masturbating and if I come home and my wife is having sex with another man. But these things are the same, or in the same category? I don’t think so.
Why would it only apply to adulterers? If it only applied to adulterers, they would have just wrote adultery. I don’t think it’s a stretch at all, especially since not everyone being spoken to would be married.
As for drunkenness, I don’t think that it is a sin. I think you are a lot more likely to commit other sins if you are drunk, but just getting drunk is not a sin in my opinion.
Well, we have what Jesus said, but for the sake of argument, let’s assume this is true. What about “sinning in your heart”? That doesn’t necessarily make someone upset.

1 corinthians 7:2
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
If pre-marital sex wasn’t a sin, why would St Paul reccomend this? If masturbation wasn’t a sin, why would St Paul recomend this?

(And just before anyone takes this and runs with it, no, this doesn’t attack priestly ceibacy. He says if you have self-control it is good to remain unmarried)
 
I think loving people is trying to be the best person you can be. Basically going out of your way to help people. Trying to be as polite and as nice as possible. I think that loving God can be shown through your actions with other human beings. I don’t have the quote off hand, but I am sure that you guys can point me to it (the one that says the way you treat others is basically like the way you treat God).
That may be fine to you but if you talk to a Christian it may go into another dimension.

It is all in the scripture. Basically to love the Lord my God is to obey His commandments. There are many commandments, teachings and precepts that have been revealed and understood by us. Failing to observe these is equal not loving Him. Funny isn’t it? But that’s the way with God.

Similarly with loving others (neighbors). Again the loving here is base on God’s love which is called agape. Someone rightly mentioned that earlier on. Agape is an unconditional and self-giving love which is quite different from human eros or platonic love.

I am afraid you may be speaking on different wave length with Christian posters here especially if we cannot agree on the definition of the topic. I am not saying you are wrong; I am saying we are seeing things differently.

God bless.
 
I don’t think that it is something that I am just going to learn. I think it is something that I need to be convinced of…and I don’t know how easy that would be.
Sounds like you are also convinced you won’t be convinced either. Right?
Do I think that it is wrong to masturbate? Not really, no. Do I think that it is wrong to use condoms? No, and I think that in some cases it would be immoral to tell people not to use them (Africa for example). Do I think that there is something wrong with pre marital sex? No, not really, as long as the people doing it are on the same page and one person isn’t deceiving the other. I have heard all the logic behind this that sex is a gift from God and things of that nature, but I just don’t buy it to be honest. And if these things are sins, they are far from serious sins. If they were so serious, why would Jesus either not talk about them, or the writers of the gospel leave out what Jesus said about it because they didn’t deem it to be important? In my opinion, not holding the door for someone behind you and them thinking “that guy is a jerk” is far more of a sin than using a condom when you have sex. And to be honest I don’t think that anything will logically convince me otherwise.

One of these acts gets someone upset. The other act does absolutely nothing in relation to others and your view of God. And if you think that using condoms somehow cheapens sex, you are sorely mistaken, because I have had very loving marital consummations with my wife while using a condom.
So you say, but I don’t think you know what you are talking about. What you are calling love is defined by God as lust.
 
The Church define lust as

CCC 2351 said:
*Lust *is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

So using a condom is a moral disorder, and it is not "love as God designed it.
Are you suggesting that I don’t love my wife because we use condoms?
Not in the way God designed you to love her.
 
How so? Are you suggesting that I don’t love my wife because we use condoms?
I am open to correction here, but if I am not mistaken and Father Pavone’s site is an orthodox site, I believe it is common thought that you as a married man, using condoms are a part of…

**The Culture Of Death **:eek:

Don’t kill the messenger!😊
 
I was going to stay off this thread, but I continued to read it and want to comment on this point.
How so? Are you suggesting that I don’t love my wife because we use condoms?
Even if a couple is using contraception, I think it is very difficult (and usually inaccurate) to declare a man doesn’t love his wife. But humans typically love imperfectly, while God loves us perfectly. Human love often has elements of selfishness mixed in, for instance we love the other person because they love us or make us feel good in some way. God invites us to learn to love others as He loves. His love is rather radical. His perfect love involves a total giving of Himself, in a way that is life-giving. Think of Jesus, the Bridegroom, who on the cross gave Himself up entirely for the sake of His Bride, the Church. That is how we are called to love. Certainly I think you do love your wife, but few men have learned how to love their wives as Jesus loves the Church. (See Ephesians 5:25-33)
 
I was going to stay off this thread, but I continued to read it and want to comment on this point.
Even if a couple is using contraception, I think it is very difficult (and usually inaccurate) to declare a man doesn’t love his wife. But humans typically love imperfectly, while God loves us perfectly. Human love often has elements of selfishness mixed in, for instance we love the other person because they love us or make us feel good in some way. God invites us to learn to love others as He loves. His love is rather radical. His perfect love involves a total giving of Himself, in a way that is life-giving. Think of Jesus, the Bridegroom, who on the cross gave Himself up entirely for the sake of His Bride, the Church. That is how we are called to love. Certainly I think you do love your wife, but few men have learned how to love their wives as Jesus loves the Church. (See Ephesians 5:25-33)
So, he is loving imperfectly and could have elements of selfishness mixed into that love.

Who is loving perfectly, and unselfishly? Only the men who don’t wear condoms?

Being human is something we just can not avoid. Being imperfect, is also something that we must accept. Being selfish is something all have been.

Should the vatican barr women from buying too many shoes?
Because wouldn’t that be the same thing?
 
I was going to stay off this thread, but I continued to read it and want to comment on this point.
Even if a couple is using contraception, I think it is very difficult (and usually inaccurate) to declare a man doesn’t love his wife. But humans typically love imperfectly, while God loves us perfectly. Human love often has elements of selfishness mixed in, for instance we love the other person because they love us or make us feel good in some way. God invites us to learn to love others as He loves. His love is rather radical. His perfect love involves a total giving of Himself, in a way that is life-giving. Think of Jesus, the Bridegroom, who on the cross gave Himself up entirely for the sake of His Bride, the Church. That is how we are called to love. Certainly I think you do love your wife, but few men have learned how to love their wives as Jesus loves the Church. (See Ephesians 5:25-33)
I don’t know. My wife could literally do just about anything and I would not sentence her to eternal suffering. Apparently God does this all the time. Doesn’t seem like perfect love to me.
 
I don’t know. My wife could literally do just about anything and I would not sentence her to eternal suffering. Apparently God does this all the time. Doesn’t seem like perfect love to me.
Well, more technically, committing a mortal sin makes a person unable to receive God’s love. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love the person. I have heard it explained that Hell is basically the absence of God’s love. It occurs because a person makes a choice not to receive God’s love; in this case, the most loving thing God could do is place the person completely outside of His love.

However, I don’t think I have done this explanation justice.

Eamon
 
Well, more technically, committing a mortal sin makes a person unable to receive God’s love. It doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love the person. I have heard it explained that Hell is basically the absence of God’s love. It occurs because a person makes a choice not to receive God’s love; in this case, the most loving thing God could do is place the person completely outside of His love.

However, I don’t think I have done this explanation justice.

Eamon
I don’t understand how God’s love can be perfect, but a good mother’s love seems to be so much more. Even if a son has completely abandoned his mother, done horrible horrible things to her and other people, and is just a horrible person, the mother will still love her son and wish the best for him. I know many mothers like this. There will never be a time when that son would live in the absence of his mother’s love…until the day she dies and into the afterlife she loves her son.

But God chooses to continue to love his children and send them out in the absence of his love? Yet his love is perfect? That is far from perfect. And you cannot make an argument that God loves those in hell. If he did, they wouldn’t be in hell. I can guarentee you the mothers of the most horrible people in the world would not wish for their children to live through everlasting torture. It doesn’t make sense. Either God’s love is not as great as that of a good mother, or hell does not exist unless after the person dies they choose to live in the absence of God’s love. That is the only way.
 
I don’t understand how God’s love can be perfect, but a good mother’s love seems to be so much more. Even if a son has completely abandoned his mother, done horrible horrible things to her and other people, and is just a horrible person, the mother will still love her son and wish the best for him. I know many mothers like this. There will never be a time when that son would live in the absence of his mother’s love…until the day she dies and into the afterlife she loves her son.

But God chooses to continue to love his children and send them out in the absence of his love? Yet his love is perfect? That is far from perfect. And you cannot make an argument that God loves those in hell. If he did, they wouldn’t be in hell. I can guarentee you the mothers of the most horrible people in the world would not wish for their children to live through everlasting torture. It doesn’t make sense. Either God’s love is not as great as that of a good mother, or hell does not exist unless after the person dies they choose to live in the absence of God’s love. That is the only way.
It really depends which side you look at sin from.

Take a mother who loves her child, but the child refuses to accept that love. Just because the mother makes it abundantly available, there are situations where her child will choose to refuse it, cut off contact, and live without familial (name removed by moderator)ut and support. In this case, the mother hasn’t stopped loving the child.

Saying that God doesn’t love those in Hell assumes that it is God’s choice to place somebody in Hell. However, if you view Hell as a choice to refuse God’s love, then it starts to look a lot more like the mother’s love from my previous example; that is, love is available but unclaimed.

Of course, the argument in the previous paragraph depends completely on free will. If you believe that people have free will, and you believe that God allows His children to make choices that will cut them off from him, then the idea of God loving those in Hell is just as easy to accept as the idea that God loves sinners.

You said earlier that “Even if a son has completely abandoned his mother, done horrible horrible things to her and other people, and is just a horrible person, the mother will still love her son and wish the best for him.” God is the same way. He still wishes the best for his children, but that doesn’t mean that they are required to choose it.

And as for your assertion that “Either God’s love is not as great as that of a good mother, or hell does not exist unless after the person dies they choose to live in the absence of God’s love,” you are correct. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against God, which is (as I understand it) defined as the acceptance and belief that God is your savior followed by the choice to live without his love. I personally think that everyone has the chance to make the choice (kinda like a point when truth is revealed to each person and they then make a choice). Do I think that a loving God would do anything less than provide ample opportunities? No. I also believe that the Church adheres to a stricter code of morals and behavior than God might necessarily require. It’s just that if you decide/believe that you can morally act in a different way, you are rolling the dice.

Also, there isn’t a single person on Earth who can tell you how God’s love actually works. I don’t sweat the small stuff and trust that God has abilities to save that I can’t even imagine. I also believe that there are people who would choose not to accept Him even knowing His love for a fact. That’s free will.

Eamon
 
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